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Picture this: A father-in-law offers significant support for his son-in-law to learn full time in Kollel. The shver sacrifices other parts of his budget in order to make it work. After 12 years, the shver says “I can’t keep doing this. I will need to stop the support soon”. The (not so young) kollel man negotiates with his shver and manages to convince the shver year after year to keep it up and even increase the contributions. After another 8 years the shver says “That’s it! I am cutting the amount I give you by half!”
After receiving tens of thousands of dollars over 20 years, the son-in-law goes collecting for support from the general public and tells people that his shver is the biggest hater of Torah there is. He tells people, “Can you imagine his cruelty? I have children to support and soon need to marry them off! What a rasha he is! After threatening to do it for 8 years he finally cut down his contributions. Doesn’t he know that I am really supporting him spiritually?”
The State of Israel and its citizens have been giving hundreds of millions of dollars to support full-time learning for decades. The last figure I saw was $273 million a year just to Yeshivas and Kollelim. They cut down the figure by $107 million (a significant cut), and the rhetoric is extremely harsh. This does not include all the other government benefits that are still given to kollel families. Can anyone explain how this is not an extreme example of being kafoi tov?
“For decades, the Israeli government threatened to cut funds of yeshivos and kollelim, but they never actualized…..” ““A sword hanging over the study hall.”….. “Israeli authorities and the court system hate those who study Torah and had acted with anger, wickedness, and malice.”
Really? How about a thank you first?
Rocky, there are many reasons why this is not a good comparison. I’ll highlight a few.
The son in law is married to his daughter and therefore this was a condition going into the marriage.
The government cut was done as they want the bochurim to go serve in the army. Let’s change your scenario. The father in law turns to the son and says “I want you to go work in a business setting that’s not appropriate for a ben torah and therefore I’m cutting support.” Do you think the father in law is deserving of any thank you?Thank you Rocky.
It is time that we recognize that a framework exists to continue learning torah in depth and service in the IDF. This framework has existed for almost 60 years. It has a proven track record. The existence of eighty Hesder Yeshivot refute all that lies and hand-wringing. These yeshivot exist with the full backing of the court and the rest of the country, and shows that there is no “war against Torah.” The Hesder program combines advanced Talmudic studies with military service in the Israel Defense Forces, within a religious framework. The drop outs (OTD) rate is minuscule, since the talmidim are in a constant framework with their yeshiva.
I would like to suggest that the Charedim set up the own Hesder programs to allow bochurim to remain in their own framework. In the interim, let learn in the existing Hesder programs. together, that is if they can keep up.The drafting of these bochurim is not part of a war against G-d and Torah. The charedi/army issue has been raging non-stop for years. But this war against the Jewish Nation has brought it to a head. Think about the rest of Am Yisrael what we see – the unfair burden on the non religious, who have to leave their families and jobs and close their businesses to fight the enemy for a much longer time because there are no other troops to defend the Jewish Nation., It an unfair burden on them. To the rest of the religious public who serve with distinction- see the avoidance of service by the chardi public as nothing less then a full-blown Chilul Hashem. There is no excuse – is my blood not the same red? Do I not pray to the Almighty too? Does my learning not count? As some of us sit in Gaza and fight and learn torah with my chavrusa during our short rest from war, what is their real excuse not to serve the Am. May G-d grant us wisdom and peace.
The difference: A father-in-law supports out of love of his children & appreciation of Torah study.
The Israeli secular court Hates Chareidim & has zero appreciation for Torah study.
The government was only supporting yeshivos for political/legal reasons & always hated the fact that Yeshivos were getting money. Chazal tells us that if you dishonorably give tzedakah to an Oni, you lose your sechar.
The Brisker Rov said that the founders of the State wished to replace Judaism with Zionist nationalism. & many Israelis still hope for that ideal.
The money was never given out of respect or appreciation to the Yeshivos. How loud would your thank you be if someone reluctantly gave you a present only for a kickback (votes) but he actually hated you?Even if it always would have been given out of goodwill:
These tens of thousands of families already live on very low incomes, to suddenly cut funds from their basic necessities for a political reason is an act of cruelty! Tremendous achzorius!
For families with many children, the mothers work hard on low pay, to half their income suddenly is a tremendous rishus!
The court & the leftists are certainly Reshaim who deserve no thank you from the Chareidim.How many times have you heard poor people thanking the citizens of the US for all the programs they offer that dwarf Israel? Kal Vechomer in Israel, the non religious HATE the fact that yeshivos get money. Even the religious zionists aren’t too fond of it.
The money was reluctantly given purely for political reasons by people who hate Torah study!
The Secular supreme court hate the religious population & they are gloating over their power to hurt thousands of poor children.
Even if you believe the Chareidim should all go to work & not live off the State, the economy is not prepared for them, they have no training to enter the work force. They also for cultural reasons can not enter the army & you don’t punish their wives & children even if you think they are wrong.
Maybe you lower the support gradually & allow people to find other sources of income.Rocky-The appreciation of a son-in-law to a father-in-law is very different than the Israeli Government. A father-in-law shows love, care and that’s one of the reasons he does it. It’s not just a deal.
essmeir-unfortunately you are wrong. When I was learning in Eretz Yisroel many years ago, the draft law was starting to be talked about. My Rosh Yeshiva gave a shmuz about it and he said, “Only those who understand the Torah can understand why the chareidim don’t serve in the army.”
If there isn’t full time learning available, where are the Roshei Yeshiva of the next generation going to come from? Where’s Ameilus Hatorah going to come from if there will be no full time learning?I was in a bad mood the other day when I got my tuition letters saying how much I owe to various Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs. Although I received a significant break, the total cost is still a massive percentage of my annual income. While going over the paperwork, I received a phone call asking to help support Yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel after the budget cuts. I want to say I had Derech Eretz when saying “I’m sorry I cannot right now,”, I may have come across more than a bit angry when I think of all the American parents literally scrounging for funds while they Yeshivos barely find enough to get by year after year, with almost all of it coming from tuition and donations and almost nothing from the government.
Not totally the same. There’s a reality that pre-dates 1948.
This is nonsense, as some have already noted, as the Zionists invaded against the wishes of the Jews there and have shmaded and impoverished generations of Jews. But the topic itself is also inaccurate. The greatest supporter of Torah in the world – even before the Zionists further impoverished the Jews under its unwanted control – is, instead, Russian President Vladimir Putin.
@yeshivaguy45,
Well obviously a rosh yeshiva will say that. But there is so much to question about that.
1) How about the masses that you just know can’t and won’t be a rosh yeshiva. Let not call it masses but rather minority. Surely you just know that 25% will never be the next rosh yeshiva. We aren’t saying “no full time learning for everyone”. Just for some.
2) Are there really no rosh yeshivas in Hesder? I see so many ehrlicha holy jews in the army that you can cry. Have you heard the story by R Asher Weiss about teflin? Why can’t there be a system for more of those boys? I do think 18 is young. But I think we can work with the govt and ask that it be extended to 21-22 when boys are more developed. At that point its not so bad if boys go to “work”. They can go to the army in EY too. I just can’t understand the culture arguement. I should say that I agree it will be harder for chasidim. But even among chasdim Belz has a weaker track. Ger is still hard core but they need to wake up and cater to the weaker ones there too. I think finding a path for chasdim will be harder but not impossible if the army is willing to work with us. But the masses are so anti anyhting.I agree with some posters ^ it is questionable whether this Israeli shver gets sechar. Yes, they give money, but for this money – that they gave away in a political agreement and did not supervise appropriately – they got multitudes of students who do not seem to be great at following Torah commands of chesed, gratitude, derech eretz, and even a desire to force others to work and fight for them. This is unfortunate result of all the shver’s donations ….
There is some hope. I learnt that if you give a beggar who ends up being a dishonest person, you still get a sechar for the giving, but not for the chessed … Still, if the shver did not ensure that the “boy” learns appropriately instead of just satisfying his demands, it might be his fault….
HaKatan:
Your recent comment in this discussion is based on three things:
[1] Shocking lies
[2] fanatical hatred
[3] blatant insanity.HaKatan, before the Zionists the E. Yisroel was a 3rd-world place. Now, it is a first-world place.
Square Root : So other than those 3 factors, do you agree with Hakatan??
I don’t think you realize how much torah the AMERICAN government is supporting. There is food stamps and free daycare available for low-income students, even if they are full time yeshiva students. There is also HUD/section 8, WIC, LIHEAP, medicaid, and various other programs. There is also Fafsa and many other forms of aid that yeshivas in america get from the government.
If the American government would decide to suddenly not give any of these benefits to people who are learning in yeshiva or kollel, I would certainly think that is wicked discrimination. Since these programs are being funded by taxpayers, all citizens should equally have the rights to receive these benefits.
So the same way public schools and colleges in israel get this funding, why shouldn’t yeshivas? Ah, because what the yeshivas are doing isn’t as valuable as studying Japanese folk songs in a liberal arts course? If so that is absolutely rishus, no doubt about it. A “jewish state” should know better.
Regarding essmeir’s point, I believe it may be a bit naive. The whole reason the supreme court struck down the yeshiva exemption is because of separation of church and state. They think (incorrectly) that it is unfair to exempt someone on religious grounds from army service, and all citizens have to be treated equally. If so, then if the government would chas”v succeed with drafting the charedim, hesder would be next. How is it fair to allow hesder students to serve 1.5 years instead of 3 simply because they are in yeshiva? Isn’t that a lack of seperation of church and state?
So Mr. Hesder, be happy that we’re fighting this battle for you, because they’re coming for you next.SQUARE_ROOT:
Your recent reply to my post in this discussion is based on three things:
[1] Denial
[2] Ignorance
[3] ZionismHakatan- can you clarify which Jews were against the Zionists “invading?” Jews were returning to Eretz Yisroel in droves pre WWII which is our God given right. We knew that as long as EY was in control of someone else, that our right to return would be limited… And that came true when the British issued the White Papers preventing the escapees and survivors of the Holocaust to come home. Other than hardcore 3 Shvuah-nicks who thinks establishing a state is the fourth yeihareg veal yaavor, who at the time was against us establishing a state, even via war, to ensure that all Jews worldwide would have our home available and accessible to return to?
And I’m also not sure it was an invasion. The World gave us a state when the British left and then the new state was invaded by the Arabs.
Chaim87, you are correct that not everyone can handle full time learning. However, if they make the draft mandatory for all chareidim (which is the new draft law), there will be no more full time learning for anyone, even those who are cut for full time learning.
simcha613: When the Zionists first began their invasion a century or so ago, the Jews living in then-Palestine, including Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZT”L, begged the Zionists to go away and to stop inflaming the Arabs and causing the Arabs to hate Jews (thinking that other Jews are Zionists). The Chevron Massacre is a good example of this; the marauding Arabs murdered the talmidei chachamim (non-Zionists, of course) in the Chevron Yeshiva because their European features made the Arabs conclude that they, too, were Zionists who were threatening their Al Aqsa – as opposed to the sefardim in the town whom the savages did not touch because they knew that the sefardim there were not Zionists.
Actually, it was the Zionist provocations that caused those very white papers, and the borders to be closed, of course. Think: the British had recently issues the Balfour Declaration, which was rather magnanimous, even though, as they noted, the Zionists read far more into it than they intended (and wrote). The whole point was to allow Jews a safe haven in then-Palestine under British control. So, why would the British then follow that up with the White Papers? The answer, of course, is Zionist provocation of the Arabs. Had the evil Zionists not invaded, the doors would have remained wide open. There also would not have been a Holocaust, in the first place, if not for Zionism, but that’s a separate related point.
Your kefirah about the gimmel shevuos is, of course, disgraceful. The Maharal stated that they are indeed yeHareig viAl Yaavor. It’s also abysmally stupid to violate those oaths (and to mock the same) given what Hashem said he would do – and unfortunately did – in response. But to answer your question, even Rabbi AY Kook was against establishing a State via war. The few Rabbanim in Agudah who (unfortunately) gave their tentative approval to such a “State” did so only on a number of conditions including that it would be fully peaceful, not forever wars as all the gedolim for a century predicted Zionism would be.
In writing that “The World gave us a state when the British left and then the new state was invaded by the Arabs.”, you’re simply parroting Zionist lies and propaganda. What actually happened, as written above, was that the Zionists terrorized and fought against the British, forcing them to leave, and then blatantly disregarded the UN directive that they were going to start a new Mandate there by founding their “State” and started their first of many wars with the Arabs. This included the Zionists attempting to take Jerusalem, also explicitly against the UN which told the Zionists that Jerusalem should be an international city, which caused the British-trained Jordanians to enter that war, which caused the deaths of even more Jews on the altar of Zionism and also the loss of access to the Kosel Maaravi.
Dear HaKatan and Neturei Karta,
Before Eretz Yisrael was taken-over by “The Zionists”,
there were approximately three [3] yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael.After 76 years of Zionist rule in Eretz Yisrael,
there are many hundreds of yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael,
maybe more than 1,000 yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael.Plus similar increases in the number of synagogues in Eretz Yisrael.
In secular year 1967, the stunning victory of “The Zionists”
against the Arabs caused an international Baal Teshuvah movement,
which continued for decades after 1967 CE.The grandchildren of the year 1967 CE Baal Teshuvah movement
are both studying in many yeshivahs right now,
and teaching in many yeshivahs right now.ALL food in the Israeli Army is KOSHER.
Chazal clearly taught that the Jewish People will not be redeemed
until they become united. By constantly attacking “The Zionists”,
you guarantee that the Jewish People will NEVER be united,
which means that the Jewish People will NEVER be redeemed.Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOTyeshiva man (?) > If the American government would decide to suddenly not give any of these benefits to people who are learning in yeshiva or kollel, I would certainly think that is wicked discrimination.
Many of benefits you listed are intended to help people who are not able to work and also for those who study to be able to support themselves. So, you might or might not be within the law by using these funds for other purposes, but you are definitely not using them the way voters intended. So, as you describe this as “normal”, you need to rethink whether Torah approves of such crooked ways. It is well may be that perception of how one could use public assistance is skewed by the person’s environment. While many sub-cultures in US would not take public assistance unless they can’t find other work, there are also communities where using that assistance is normalized as part of life over several generations…
If these laws also provide benefits for people involved in religious/spiritual studies, please provide a reference, I’ll be happy to change my opinion.
I asked this question to an Israeli yeshivaman. He told me “מה פתאם? We pay taxes [which he told me is not required under Dina Demalchusa, according to the Chazon Ish]. We’re just getting OUR money back.”
I countered that the state gives way more than the chareidi population’s taxes.
But he told me: $500 million a year [to yeshivos], divided by a million chareidim. [his numbers, I din’t fact check.] $500 a chareidi per year. The sales tax is 17%. Every chareidi pays that amount in sales tax alone.So even if he’s wrong about Dina Demalchusa , if he’s right with the numbers:
Israel taxpayers fund Bar Ilan and Hebrew University and Chaim Weizmn University.
They fund gas and electricity for Gazans [for the past 20 years]
They fund Netanyahu’s trips to AmericaAre they not entitled to a drop back for their yeshivos?
Spot on,
That’s faulty logic
They benefit from paved roads, garbage collection, sewer system, mail service etc.
They’re taxes pay those things too
It’s like the mashal with the guy collecting tzedakah for his yeshiva and comes in a fancy car, the gvir says “I’m not giving money for your fancy car, but the answer is that whatever your kvanah is that’s what you give it to
So too here
Rocky’s original comment is 100% true and valid.
spot > Are they not entitled to a drop back for their yeshivos?
a group of people who work less than the average population will generally pay less in taxes, and as coffee mentions, they use other services that are covered by taxes. More significantly, hpw can one dream about supporting Torah Learning by forcibly taking money from other Jews?
Why can’t we have people paying for their own learning, like many Amoraim did, or a genuine Zevulun/Issachar partnership where both parties willingly share zechus?
The money that supports the Torah world comes from Frum peoples taxes. Including Maam which is the value added tax every consumer pays. The Frum world are the biggest consumers. The money that supports the Yeshiva comes from people like me. No one is doing us a favor we are supporting ourselves.
@rocky, coffee, always
I didn’t mean that the only taxes they pay is sales tax; they also pay income, property (arnona)… It was just a means of demonstrating the numbers. As far as your legitimate points of roads, sewage, etc. You’re absolutely right. If the numbers don’t add up, revert to OP. If they do, this Israeli is correct. I don’t know the numbers. Rocky and Always, let’s hear them.spot on,
to start, see below some numbers from Annual Statistical Report on Ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) Society in Israel 2023 by Lee Cahaner Gilad Malach
does not answer our questions directly, but gives some statistics2023 population – hareidi 1.3 mln (14% of Israel) in yeshiva/kollel 145K in college 17K (3K post-graduate)
poverty rate 34%, 15% for other Jews (OJ)
monthly income per capita 3900 NIS, OJ 7400 NIS
monthly expenditure 3000 NIS, OJ 5200
employed 25-66: men 55% (haredi women and OJ 80-85%)
income from employment: men 10K OJ 19K, women 8K, OJ 12KReb Always_Ask_Questions,
Those numbers are totally irrelevant. Even if the Charedi population pays less taxes then the rest of the population, that does not mean the taxes they pay don’t cover the governments expenses for them by a significant margin.
Let’s also remember that like in America, there are many things the government pays for that are of little or no benefit to the frum population. In public schools in Israel (mamlachti), both religious and irreligious, tuition is completely covered by the government. In those schools the teachers are also generally paid (much) higher salaries, and a lot of government money goes towards fancy equipment and facilities. The government does also help with tuition in private schools, but not nearly to the same extent. There is also a tremendous amount of government money that goes towards Universities, stadiums, and many other cultural expenditures, and liberal research groups that are of benefit to some parts of the population but not others.
This is why we are fighting for tuition vouchers in america; so that our tax money doesn’t exclusively go toward kids learning about the 8 different genders and affirmative action, and not towards the schooling for the religious tax paying communties.
My sister-in-law’s research lab (which was actually a useful one) paid for all-expenses-paid trips to different exotic countries for the researchers (including her) to basically do nothing because the head of the lab felt it would be a “great cultural experience”.
So feel free to try to put together the numbers, but due to all the silly things governments spend money on, for many of which the charedi population does not contribute to the expense or benefit from whatsoever, I would think it’s highly doubtful that charedi society is costing more than their economic contributions.
Yes man, I didn’t come to any conclusions yet, I just found some numbers that looked relevant and reliable and shared with you.
Gevalt. The Chareidi Rabbonim should be pushing the Israeli government to abolish the draft so that more Chareidim can go to work. Just demanding that they continue to pay for Yeshivos is burning whatever smidgen of goodwill is left.
YS > Chareidi Rabbonim should be pushing the Israeli government to abolish the draft so that more Chareidim can go to work.
A better idea – push Tzahal to have wars bein hazmanim.
Being the biggest supporter by withholding child care.support.
Reb Eliezer @laskern Free child support. Far greater support than any other yungerman gets from any other government in the world in all of history. Even counting what was withheld.
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