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Dear Som,
For that point, you could hate everything about America and it would still be your country.Anyone born in the USA has the same citizenship as you. Who cares if it was grandparents, or parents? Why kind of Americans were your great grandparents?
Dear Ben,
Are borders are not open, and were not open for almost the last hundred years. We had an orderly immigration process. It has gotten very bureaucratic. And has been decimated by political polarization and incoherent legislation.To add to what n0mesorah wrote.
My point is that to claim that since you came here first so you can decide on who immigrates afterwards, then when your grandparents came here they could have been discriminated against by the people before them.
That is not the way American immigration should work because it leads to racist policies. ie. Trump saying numerous times that he wants to have a complete and total Muslim ban. He wasn’t able to legally get away with it but the racist policy that he promoted is against everything that America stands for .jack-“For that point, you could hate everything about America and it would still be your country.”
of course you can hate america and its still your country!!!if you dont like your job and someone asks you whats your job do you reply i dont have one??
jack trump’s “Muslim” ban is a ban on the country’s on Obama’s bombing list!! so that makes obama a bigger racist than trump!(bombing is worse then not allowing entry into the US)
Dear Som,
It seems like you missed the conversation. Jackk brought in Trump as an example of racist immigration policy. Not to call him racist.if someone wants racist policies then hes racist
” should have made exceptions based on the Holocaust”
There was no provision in the law for any exception. And that is what the Trumpies want to return to. (Jeff Sessions even praised that law and that was one reason Trump made him AG.) They want a police state that would round up 11 million people.
Dear Charlie,
That is my point. Jews are aligning themselves with conservatives policies. Maybe they think they will be seen as more ‘American’ or maybe they want the ‘right’ to lie them, or perhaps they are scared of the ‘left’. Whatever it is, they force themselves to take political positions that are completely opposed to the typical Jewish stance of yesteryear. [And they think they are Conservative by doing an about face! The absurdity of it is, the neocons change their positions just as fast as modern day liberals.] The facts that they pontificate do not matter to them. As long as they can cozy up to some magazine, they feel better. (American? Protected? Empowered?) Frum Yidden have yet to learn, that America does not care if you cozy up to the right or to the left. It is a non discriminatory melting pot. As much as we are not going to assimilate, we must remain independent.Actually the reason I identify with Conservatives are many.
a) America has been a haven for the Jewish People because of the concept of “freedom” even though we were hated for most of the history of the USA, very little could actually be done against us on a legal level because the bedrock principle of the USA was that i have freedom to do what I wand as long as it does not affect you.
This principle is non-existent in Liberal circles.
b) I view it as a Chilul Hashem to vote for a party that is in open war on the concept of G-D
c) The modern day liberal democrat party has become home to open anti-semites and refuses to even attempt to condemn them.
d) the modern liberal democrat party has a history of failure and is for implementing policies with a proven history of failure.
Dear Ben,
If you are a conservative than it should be an intrinsic part of who you are. You should not have much knowledge or interest in what goes on in liberal circles. And your views can not be based off of countering liberal views. It does not work. You could spend a century fighting liberal views, and the liberals will convert you. You would have to move a few degrees to the left every decade just to keep up with them.PS We had the Democrats are atheists point before. Nobody named one.
Again I fail to understand you.
a) No I am not a “conservative” to the core.
I am what Rabbi Gifter zt”l termed a Torah Jew.My values are informed and shaped by the Torah which is timeless.
My morality is informed and shaped by the Torah which is timeless.
I understand that I am far from perfect or the ideal. That is the point of life. The struggle between the Yetzer Horah & the Yetzer Tov.
However I define what is moral based upon the teachings of the Torah.
I define what is right based upon the teachings of the Torah.
And as a member of the Jewish People who have been persecuted for millennia I look towards which political party is more safe for my people.
As such I currently identify with the Republican party. They are more in line with my values then the Democrats by a long shot & they are more safe for the Jewish people.
Dear Ben,
That is a beautiful post you wrote! But, what is the last paragraph? It should not mean much to the average Yid, if ‘his’ political party is aligned with his morals. There are real places to act morally. Politics is a game compared to real life.“people asking to send people back to their own country unless they undergo a citizenship process with mass murder, starvation, shooting people on the edge of mass graves”
That is exactly what has happened in several Central American countries and Trump is sending them back anyway. And they are trying to come here LEGALLY.
“I define what is moral based upon the teachings of the Torah”
If you support Trump, that statement is a lie. There has not been a more licentious President since Kennedy (Harding was even worse), and there has never been a President who cheated in business more or lied more.
Unless you think paying hush money to mistresses and cheating customers, employees, suppliers, contractors, creditors, business partners, and everyone else in your business career is Torah morality. The Torah I have says NO!
Nobody has been able to identify a single atheist in Congress, in either party, for years. One member, Sen, Kyrsten Sinema, refuses to identify with any religion; she is a very conservative Democrat and a huge supporter of Israel.
“Why kind of Americans were your great grandparents?”
All eight were born in the US. They came when the US had open borders!
To state that the most licentious president since Kennedy is Trump when Clinton is a recent memory and with the full knowledge of what is going on with Bill Clinton right now is a new level of denial of reality.
To focus on the personal individual lifestyle of Trump affects the comparable to the very real legislative agenda of the modern day democratic party is further evidence of willful blindness to what is going on.
Dear Ben,
Even if behind (no longer fully) closed doors Clinton is more perverse, if not for him being under the microscope as president’s are, it would be unknown to to the masses the true nature of the former Arkansas Governor. Compare that to Trump who acted in public in a boorish manner for decades. You are putting a lot of specifics into the truth to get it to be a denial of reality.But you did not answer his question. Do you see a conflict between the Torah’s moral outlook, and supporting Trump? Also, you did not answer my question. If you identify with the Torah’s values, why would you move away from such a timeless ideal to support the fleeting knee-jerk morality of a political party?
n0mesorah,
Please pay attention to what I actually write,
I do not expect a non-jew who is not bound by the Torah, does not study the Torah, and does not live by the Torah to live a life personified by the Torah.
However let us say we have a promising young athlete who has begun basketball training. He can dribble, he can run he can play defense.
However his shooting is terrible he is consistently short.
So the suggestion is made by a young man to lower the basket, we will change the rules of the game so that from now on his shot is on the money and he can become the great basketball player he is capable of being.
One coach hears the suggestion and begins to laugh
.
Sonny, he says. You can’t just change the rules of the game. The game is not limited to this one field and this one league. It’s international. The only thing you will ever accomplish by changing the rules for this one bad offensive player is ensuring that no player who plays in this league will ever be able to really become good, because he will have no idea what the real rules are.The example is crude but the point is sound.
Trump is morally bad so are most politicians.
But there is one party now that is advocating to change the rules of the game.
There is one party that is advocating to change our perception of morality.
There is one party that is advocating against what is accepted as right and just.
They are openly advocating to change the moral fabric of the country.
That is the Democrat party.
To vote for them to state that what they advocate for does not offend me.
My opinion on the biggest reason we need to vote for Trump is the Supreme Court. Trump, hate him or not, would appoint far more conservative and pro religious judges than Biden would. We don’t want to have a government banning bris millah or forcing rabaniim to be mesader kiddushin for an assur relationship.
Dear Ki,
There are currently zero judges that would uphold 1such a ban. There are far more realistic reasons to vote for Trump.
Dear Ben,
America’s moral climate does not depend on politics. I’m the moral sense America is a true democracy. Meaning, that the country’s legal morals are produced by the citizens moral judgements. Identify with an American political party because of moral issues, is not Torah. It is not even politics. It is falling for politicians using religious sentiment to bait voters. You can blind yourself and say it is just democrats, but the truth is America has a serious failing of religious leadership. Our culture has been left to rot because of religious neglect. Not political interference.
There, I answered my question for you. And Charlie’s question as well. Though it is according to my opinions and not yours. Your points are clear and understood. I disagree with them. And you do not show how this answers the questions put to you.
Speaking of immigration, in 2016 the president’s campaign stated there would be a full press conference on his wife’s journey to citizenship. The Knauss family is very lucky they got here when they did.
Kilaolomchasdo -“My opinion on the biggest reason we need to vote for Trump is the Supreme Court.”
I agree! But not for the reasons that you wrote.
For these reasons:
From Wikipedia:
“President Donald Trump describes himself as pro-life and generally opposes abortion with some exceptions: rape, incest, and circumstances endangering the life of the mother.[1] He has said he is committed to appointing justices who may overturn the ruling in Roe v. Wade.[2]
Trump supports “traditional marriage”, but after the election he said that he considers the nationwide legality of same-sex marriage a “settled” issue with the Obergefell v. Hodges ruling.[2][3] This appeared to contradict some of his campaign statements, where he said he would “strongly consider” appointing justices who may overturn this decision.”
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