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Gaboim: The “minhag” to give a bracelet by the engagement became widespread within my lifetime. I am very young. Not everything done by you or your circle is minhag yisroel.
THe reasons the engagement ring cannot be considered kiddushin are as follows.
1- no witnesses
2- a ring with a stone is passul according to all opinions
3- assukin b’oso inyan only applies if the ring was given min hastam. If it was given deliberately not b’toras kiddushin, it makes no differance.
BTW, I recall that the story with the rings in the school play was that R’ Moshe paskened that there was no need for a get of any kind.
ItcheSrulik: In any event, the “engagement ring” (which itself is just a mishgas like Mod-80 pointed out and not a custom) is given by the “Vort” which is a few days or week after the proposal was made. So it is therefore a non-issue, as he is not proposing at the time he gives her the ring — the were already previously engaged as Choson/Kallah.
regarding chshash kiddushin, Last year two of my friends were in a restaurant and someone they knew came over and asked them to be eidim on his kiddushin and then he went over to a girl he knew and said Harie at.. and gave a ring. She accepted. I’m not sure why the guy did it he may have been high on something. My friends had to go in to bais din to testify. I heard it was invalidated in the end but my friends wouldn’t tell what happened; they were sworn to secrecy.
Gabboim, I’m sure that many Jews give bracelets. However, many also give rings and the giving of a ring prior to the Chuppah is recognized as something other than for the sake of Kiddushin. Similarly, while those you know might give the ring at the Vort, many also give it when they get engaged.
What intrigues me about this is that the original source for the non-Jewish custom to give an engagement ring probably is Kiddushin, since the source for the Western custom is dated back to Roman custom. That shouldn’t matter now though as everyone knows that when one gives a ring at the time of the engagement it is not for the sake of Kiddushin but rather as a romantic gesture/sign of commitment.
Can any of the good and fine people in the CR accept the idea that NOT everything that is done in their particular circle is Kodesh Kodoshim to be done by ALL of Klal Yisroel? I never received a bracelet OR a ring when my hubby and I became engaged, though he did give me a pendant. I got my ring much later. My husband was and is my diamond.
Neither did my son give a bracelet to his Kallah. He did give her a ring when he proposed. My daughter received a non-diamond or gold bracelet (very pretty though), but not for any reason other than the fact that her chosson saw it, thought of her, and saved it for that time when he proposed, especially as he had not yet gotten her a ring.
There are no “rules,” about anything, and if there are for some, there shouldn’t be. Pearls in the Yichud room come to mind. WHO SAYS SO? What if the girl does not like pearls? What if the chosson does not like gold watches? My husband is a prime example of such a guy. When did we turn a moment of simcha into such a regulated, materialistic occasion?
There are no “rules,” about anything, and if there are for some, there shouldn’t be. Pearls in the Yichud room come to mind.
Well, I guess that invalidates my marriage. I gave her earrings. 🙂
The Wolf
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