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is it better to live in America (chutz la’aretz) and lounge to go to eretz yisroel or is it better to live there but then eventually get so used to it and it will loose its specialnes?
like the kids in Israel, there dream is to come to America…To live in Eretz Yisroel one must be ready and willing to live a life of kulei kedusha. And be able to withstand the threats to Yiddishkeit by the Zionists. If one lives in Eretz HaKodesh without the requisite life of kulei kedusha they are setting themselves up to be far worse off ruchniyosdik than living in Chutz La’aretz.
beee: Please reread your OP. Was “lounge” supposed to be “long or longing”?
@beee- Kids only long for America if the parents transmit that feeling unconsciously. I’ll take the problems that come with living here over the US any day.
While it’s true that one must live a holy life in Eretz Yisroel, Chazal already told us that it’s better to live in in a city in EY which is full of avodat kochavim, rather then live in EY..
Our patriarchs lived there even though the 7 abominable nations dwelt there.
People should refrain from preaching and and discouraging others from living there… Stress the positive, teach the holiness of EY and elevate people to potential instead of denigrating EY..
We all know already about the sitra achra and Yetzer Harah competing with the strong holiness that permeats the Holy Land.
Oh, but the Zionists….”….setting themselves up to be far worse off ruchniyosdik ….’, Blah, blah, blah…
Are there meds to alleviate this obsession??Rabbi Nachbi ben Vofsi :
Stay here in the desert, you dummies.
Where better to be oisek in Toireh than there without other idol worshippers and reshoyim… You got manna, a rolling well, newly pressed clothes daily, what’s wrong with y’all ??
Eretz Yisroel ??? Ha… Living amongst the abominable nations who do worse than the Mitzriyyim ? Have you forgotten already that Moshe Rabbeinu quoted Hashem.. ” Uvchukoseyhem Lo Seileichu”… You’ll learn from these people…
Stay here among the scorpions … Shteig here , ye masses…
Don’t take a chance on your and your children’s ruchnios..
Frolick here in the midbar, boyz & girlz…
Listen to us, we’re the gedolim..Joseph…. Wow, you really a man with such hatred and distaste of other Jews. Maybe you should book a speaking engagement to frum families who lost young children to Palestinian attacks, and you can blame the “Zionist” government and the IDF!
I don’t think any convincing or rational thought will ever allow you to realize that Hezbollah, Hamas, ISIS, and many Muslims want us killed, and have been unfortunately successfully far too many times. Look at the frum communities in France, UK, Germany – frum Jews are being physically and spiritually slaughtered there. Look at the USA where are overall Jewish population is decreasing rapidly due to intermarriage and interfaith (Pew Research). Although a much lower percentage than Conservative and Reform, intermarriage amonst the US Orthodox is highest in the world.Continue looking at the progress in Israel as “half empty”. I’ve look at the yeshivas, seminaries, mikvahs, Batei Midrashim, kosel, etc.
Without Torah, Israel won’t exist. Without the IDF, Israel won’t exist.
Sorry, I wrote:
“….. in in a city in EY which is full of avodat kochavim, rather then live in EY….”Of course, I meant to write RATHER THAN LIVE OUTSIDE EY.
TGI: The Jews in France, UK and Germany experience less physical violence than the Jews in the State of Israel.
“intermarriage amonst the US Orthodox is highest in the world”
What Kool-Aid are you drinking? The intermarriage rate among the US Orthodox is close to zero.
Joseph: And be able to withstand the threats to Yiddishkeit by the Zionists
Hello Joseph–can you please elaborate on who precisely are the Zionists you are referring to? Is it all political parties, Likud only, Labor only, etc.
Thanks in advance.
….And they continued from tent to tent, crying, throwing themselves on floor, saying ” Woe to your children, woe that the Giants, Anakim who will sacrifice and murder them to the last.. Here you are surrounded by Clouds of Glory who protect.. Not there…!! No, no..” We cannot win, we dare not risk our lives…”
“…..The Jews in France, UK and Germany experience less physical violence than the Jews in the State of Israel….” Proves nothing.
Meanwhile Aliyah is coming from Europe not the other way around…
Why don’t you stroll down the Champs Elysee, France or Unter Den Linden, Germany with your kippa, big shot?
Or how about your daughter, wife or even mother stroll there with a Star of David necklace?Joseph, I had a divorced UK woman for shabbos lunch this past week. Her parents are looking to get out of London because the fanatic Muslim presence is becoming a big challenge for many frum Jews there. Her sheitel was ripped off her head one shabbos (and she was thankful that’s all the harm she experienced)I am not looking to “win” this argument over the growing antisemitism and danger for Jews in many parts of Europe because none of us “win” by those daily realities.
Or how about the South African gentleman in my shul who wears a black hat and jacket for each daily minyan in NJ, and won’t even wear a yarmulka in the streets of Johannesburg, SA.
The many time I’ve visited Israel, not ONCE has a “zionist” police officer or IDF soldier pushed my yarmulka off or made me feel in danger of wearing one. I can’t say the same for Jews in Europe, South Africa.
If a frum Jew experiences physical violence in Israel, the violence and hated is from the radical Muslims and Palestinians. I can watch CNN, BBC, or NBC if I want someone to tell me that it’s the IDF and the Israeli government causing danger for the world.
In EY since the kadusha is so great the yetzer hora is also great so there is no middle way. Either he can overcome him or not. The Sapurni says on ראה אנכי נותן לפניכם היום ברכה וקללה there is no middle way either a blessing or vice versa.
Eli Y, here are two kinds of Zionists. One, is who fought for the land believing that they only without the help of Hashem can acquire the land.
There is another form of Zionism called religious Zionism. They believe in Hashem and gained the land of Israel to be close to Hashem and be able to perform the commandments that apply to the land.The question is if the forming of the government in Israel was religiously justified or we can only create a government after of the coming of Moshiach. If we we form a government does it have to follow the teaching of the Torah.
שקולה ישיבת ארץ ישראל כנגד כל המצוות
ספריJoseph, Chazal say that a Jew in Chul is like someone who has no god and that the Jews there do a”z in purity. The former is because the hashgacha is indirect. the latter is because they love their Sundays when they can do all their shopping in the glatt kosher supermarket. not to mention the fact that they give and receive Xmas presents and bonuses. Not to mention that here Jewish holidays are official days of rest and many offices are even closed on Chol haMoed. There you have to beg your boss to let you take vacation days,
If we live in the palace of the King in EY, our behavior has to be exceptionary.
Avi, what can I tell you. I suppose you see that Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ahraon Kotler, the Chofetz Chaim and most of Chazal themselves were like someone who has no god and were able to do a”z in purity.
Hello Joseph–can you please elaborate on who precisely are the Zionists you are referring to? Is it all political parties, Likud only, Labor only, etc.
Eli, the ones in the government, knesset, military, draft offices, universities, television, newspapers, immigration absorption personnel, etc.
LASK: “The question is if the forming of the government in Israel was religiously justified or we can only create a government after of the coming of Moshiach. If we we form a government does it have to follow the teaching of the Torah.”
Thanks, Lask. And Joseph is therefore stating that since Israel was reconquered prior to Moshiach and since there is such a high prevalence of secularism (with only some government parties/peoples representing Torah), the “goodness” of living in EY is not so obvious now and it may be better to live outside the land.
Do I have that right?
Eli Y, the test to stay religious in EY is very great. I stated before that because we live in the palace of the King, the yetzer hora recognizes the greatness we can accomplish, stands strongly against it and makes it very hard to overcome that.
Lask. ” stated before that because we live in the palace of the King, the yetzer hora recognizes the greatness we can accomplish, stands strongly against it and makes it very hard to overcome that.”
I still seek to understand so please let me add a question of clarification–do you mean that a righteous person should not live in EY because the yetzer hora is so strong, that the righteous person needs King Moshiach to secure them? Hence, they are better off in Brooklyn where they may still succeed in gaining a share in the World to Come?
Eli Y, Don’t put words in my mouth. It says לפום צערא אגרא the more effort the person exerts the more reward he gains. It is great to live in EY because you are living in the King’s palace but it comes with responsibilities. It is harder to live up to it. He needs heavenly help. If a person strives for it, he will be helped. He gets his reward for this strive. It says Pirkei Avos 4:15 that it is better to be a tail to lions than head of the foxes. זנב לאריות compared to ראש לשועלים. Better to be smaller to the great than greater to the small. A person learns more if he is among the great, so if we are in a holy place like EY, our effort to stay holy is rewarded.
Thanks Lask. I get it and I see what Joseph is driving at. Peace.
Joseph, talmidei chachamim, especially of their stature, are considered to be in EY. However, if they would live here they would be much greater. Rabbi Zeira fasted 100 fasts to forget the Torah of Bavel.
Laskern,
1. The fact that the king does not completely follow the Torah does not mean that he is not the king (Sanhedrin 20b Tosafot d”h melech).
2. The Geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). Just as Shaul’s kingship was temporary (see “Kol haTor” of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin regarding Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David as well as Rav Kook’s essay “Hesped b’Yerushalayim” printed in “Maamarei HaRaya”). It could happen that there will be a Torah republic in the future followed by a monarchy. That will not mean that the state has been annulled. L’havdil, France is now on its fifth republic but is still the same state.
3. The yetzer tov in EY is also much greater.Joseph, in a previous coffee table discussion you refer to the US and other European countries as being some of the worst places for Jews ruchniyos-wise. However, in this discussion you express such a strong distaste for Jews living in Israel as .
Conflicting yourself, You argue that Orthodox intermarriage is close to zero (see above) and argue that E”Y would be far worse (ruchniyos) than in Chutz L’ Aretz.
What is it Joseph? I know we will never agree, but I’d be curious to see the real YOU and what you really believe in. Not just conflicting arguments
“Joseph
Participant
The Jews who came to America before WWII had a far far higher OTD rate than the Jews who remained in Europe. ”“Joseph
Participant
Avi, Germany was the worst place ruchniyos-wise in Europe for Jews. But despite all the points you mentioned, prewar America was much worse than virtually any place in Europe. For a frum European Jew to move to America before WWII, there was an undeniably large risk that they — or more likely their children and/or grandchildren –would r”l become OTD; much more likely than in Europe.”There are two ways to bring the redemption, בעתה אחישנה one , if we are worthy and the other when we are not. If we are worthy the redemption will come spontaneously before the fixed time as the Munkatcher believed, but if we are not, there is a fixed time when Moshiach will come.
Moshiach comes with teshuva either from love or fear. Love can bring him before the time, but fear we will be forced to do teshuva with a harsh king like Haman. See the Ksav Sofer.I highly recommend,
To Dwell in The Palace, Ya’aleh Veyavo… Edited by Tzviah Ehrlich-Klein, Feldheim Publishers,
haskama from Rav Mordechai Gifter.
Powerful essays , some which address points in this thread.Let me get this straight. If you move to eretz Yisroel you think eventually you want like it and want to move back. But if you live in chutz laaretz you will want to live in Israel. Well then you are just fooling yourself! You aren’t really longing to go, you ate just trying to convince yourself that you are.
So let’s assume that you really would want to move back to America or wherever. (Which btw might not be true, how would you know?) But if it’s true you shouldn’t move there. Now the question is should you try and change your way of thinking about Israel and figure out a plan for how to live there and be happy and appreciative to be there? Figuring that out will take some halachic analysis and serious introspection.
JJ, a certain American rav asked Rav Tzvi Yehuda if he should make aliya or stay in chinuch in America where he knew the language and mentality of the kids. RTY told him to make aliya and ask again after he got settled. He did so and RTY told him that now that his permanent home was in EY he could consider going back for a few years to be involved in chinuch.
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