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Anyone notice it’s hard to find a guy who is both frum and excited about practicing his religion and also intelligent and motivated to succeed in an intellectual field? Are there learners who are also doctors/lawyers/engineers? I’m finding there are very very few.
The bigger question is why is it important to you that your spouse be a “doctor/lawyer/engineer”. Why is programmer/accountant/marketing guy disqualified? There are no shortage of frum guys in those, and other, fields. Why is doctor/lawyer/engineer of importance in a spouse.
Shlishi: not that it’s important but the doctor/lawyer/engineer probably make more money, on average, than the programmer/accountant/marketing guy.
Of course “hakol bidei shamayim chutz miyiras shamayim”, so that includes parnassah.
I second truth be told’s point. A person only has a limited amount of time, energy, effort, etc. Seahorse you seem to be mixing two different questions: as far as your first half, I’m sure there are doctors/ lawyers/ engineeers who are frum and excited about practicing their religion BUT there are very few in my experience who are also “learners”. The time and effort that goes into both the schooling and post-school working hours of these professions make it very unlikely that they have time and Koach for real learning. Being that guys who are serious about learning understand this, they are less likely to go into those fields to begin with.
I do find that when you look at individuals in these fields who are older, you find more who are committed to learning, possibly because as you become more established you are able to have more control over your schedule. But I’m assuming you are talking about young guys.
Seahorse – A computer programmer is an intellectual position as is an engineer. An accountant is an intellectual position as is a lawyer. If your idea is to look for an intellectual, I don’t understand your point about “finding very very few”, as the fields I mentioned are intellectual, and there are plentiful of frum guys working (or training) in them.
I consider myself an intellectual learner, in school to pursue a career in one of those fields. It’s not that there are few of us, but that (at least from what I’ve experienced) we don’t get set up for some reason. The yeshivish crowd thinks you’re too modern because you are pursuing a college degree from a respectable secular university, and the more modern crowd thinks you’re too yeshivish because torah and mitzvos are a serious priority. I’m going to avoid a long tirade about how I think these attitudes are really hurting and splintering our community (100 years ago it was common – even strongly encouraged – for observant Jews to be osek in torah and an intellectual field, but now it seems it’s either one or the other). A lot of the problems have to do with the shidduch system and the way people are inappropriately stereotyped, which is in many ways reform in comparison to how our avos, imahos and ancestors met.
Im sure you can find people like that…..:)!!!
what do you mean by “best of both worlds”? Torah IS the best theres nothing better that a life of torah….
It is a shame that it is considered taboo for girls and guys to talk directly to each other without an appointed intermediary these days in the frum community. This is a reform cultural invention that did not exist hundreds of years ago. The gemara writes about how girls used to out on certain days of the year dressed in white and mingle with guys to meet on their own. Look at how our avos and imahos met. The new reliance on shidduchim and rabbis to officiate the process is reform. It is oft-forgotten that the legislated dictum ‘”Lo tasur min hadavar asher yagidu lecha yamin u’smol” warns both against taking away laws and adding laws. Sometimes I feel like the shidduch system tries to impose new demands on young men and women without any source in Halacha. Perhaps this has (or had) good reason behind it, but it’s saddening when people act like its part of Halacha to get set up by a shadchan and go out for x amount of dates and make superficial demands. I feel bad for girls and guys of this generation because this is the system and they are in many ways forced to work within it, or told that they must as doing otherwise would be deemed scandalous or sacrilegious, while the system creates a crisis for them. I daven that the youth of next generations will be able to meet in the natural manner that Chazal intended, and the ascetic barriers and superficialities that have emerged in recent years will be recognized as what they truly are. Hadesh yamenu k’kedem!
it may have worked many many many years ago but you cant say that it can work now a days. times change and that kind of dating may not be the best thing for our generation…..
StuffedCabbage: What you’re saying is very vague. What do you mean I can’t say it can work now a days? Does it seem to you like the system we have is working? Perhaps for the select few shidduchim that have been made, but what about the thousands of aging others who feel trapped by a system beyond their control? Saying that the system that the avos and imahos used and chazal implored us to emulate is “not for our generation” is like saying that shabbos is not for our generation, or kosher is not for our generation, or meseches kiddushin is not for our generation. If you’re going to be a reformer, fine, but at least be upfront about your laxity towards reform, and don’t treat the prevailing system of shidduchim like torah misinai.
my point was that with the way the outside world is nowadays and with the way it is (very unfortunalty) affecting the jews, it may not the be the best thing if girls and boy are allowed to just meet themselves and decide to get married. at the age of 18 to say 20something girls and boys may not be the most mature in these types of thing especially growing up in a (hopefully) sheltered envoirnment where they might not know how to handle being able to just meet a guy or girl on their own…..
seahorse i know exactly what u mean….from the guys ive dated who were professionals with solid careers i felt like often times torah wasnt as solid. i believe i am solid in my judiasm and i bh have a career and therefore i guess i expect the same from a guy, but i dont think they can multitask as well as we can. so therefore u find the financial analysts, business owners and lawyers ive dated are often very intelligent and engaging but since they left learning they arent always so solid when it comes to judiasm. but im sure mr perfect exists, someone who can balance both and iyh u will find him, never stop asking hashem!!!
It is a shame that it is considered taboo for girls and guys to talk directly to each other without an appointed intermediary these days in the frum community. This is a reform cultural invention that did not exist hundreds of years ago.
This is incorrect. Hundreds of years ago our zeidas and bubbes did not stam shmooze with opposite genders. This is a complete falsity.
Clairvoyent: “complete falsity”? I’m not talking about ‘stam shmoozing’. I’m talking about being able to approach a girl/guy and introduce oneself if one is single and interested in dating that person.
How do you explain the following pesukim?
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Are the gatekeepers of modern day reform shidduchim are creating the crises we are witnessing in our age?
I should also note that the Agudah used to organize popular singles events where our bubbies and zaidees actually did get a chance to shmooze with the other gender.
clockwork_kiwi:
clockwork_kiwi:
100 years ago it was common – even strongly encouraged – for observant Jews to be osek in torah and an intellectual field, but now it seems it’s either one or the other
That is so incorrect. Lets go through the countries Jews lived in.
Between 1880 and 1914 (The onset of WWI) between one and half and two million Jews came emigrated from Eastern Europe to the United States. The first generation did not have any degrees. They worked as laborers. (That was the big Shabbos obsticle in a six day work -week).
The children of many of these Jews did obtain college degrees. However, how many children of these one 1,500,000-2,000,000 Jews remained committed to Torah. The unfortunate reality is that it was so so few. A very sad reality.
Only in certain parts of Western Europe, which had a much smaller percentage of Jews was the idea of secular college education for Torah-true Jews a reality. But lets consider it.
And this one from the RY of YU: http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2000/moadim/rsch_pesach.html
Interesting that engineers are being lumped in with Doctors and Lawyers (when engineering salaries are much closer to accountants and take the same or less schooling).
I know plenty of intellectual learners who are engineers, doctors and lawyers. Perhaps you are looking in the wrong places? (most are married now though)
Agree with SJS.
You are looking in all the wrong places.
Go out of town, and you will find.
The major in-town yeshivas have made a good living discouraging anyone “intelligent” from making a Parnassah (at least within the past 15 years). Don’t expect to find anyone there.
Sounds like you could go for a Skokie boy, or maybe even Lander College/Ohr Hachaim (in KGH). I know of some very serious (learning & Parnassah) boys who came out of Lander College.
Good luck.
The yeshivish crowd thinks you’re too modern because you are pursuing a college degree from a respectable secular university, and the more modern crowd thinks you’re too yeshivish because torah and mitzvos are a serious priority.
But your school administrator blesses you every day, and twice on payday.
The OP added “excited about practicing his religion”.
TBT:
Sadly, there are many people who practice Yiddishkeit but are not excited to do so (they continue either from social pressure, family structure, or ignorance).
The term some people use is “orthoprax”. The OP does not want someone like that, so she had to add that point.
Yes guys have changed over the years but what about girls? Why is it unheard of for a girl to be a stay at home mom?
Yes guys have changed over the years but what about girls? Why is it unheard of for a girl to be a stay at home mom?
Rav Miller was very much for SAHM’s and husbands working. He lost out to the “Lakewood” velt (post 1980’s), who hold it is better for women to work and support their husbands learning.
And at this point, tuition (for those who are working) needs two salaries (and let’s not get into the economics of the issue).
tobg: Unheard of? It is quite common in the frum community!
Why is it unheard of for a girl to be a stay at home mom?
Tuition generally requires 2 working parents.
gavra_at_work
Sadly, there are many people who practice Yiddishkeit but are not excited to do so
Thank you for responding.
Are these fallouts equal (percentage wise) among those who spent some serious time learning in a post high-school yeshiva as with those who went to a good secular college at 18-19 and spent 8 or so years working very hard for their degree. Then spent several years working very long hours to be properly established?
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