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Zahavas- that’s exactly the difference of dating and beshowing. That our parents try their best. We don’t fall in love before marriage.
After marriage, is when we start loving our spouse. Some people sadly never develope that love.
But out of the Chassidish world, dating makes you “see if there’s chemistry-(supposedly), and guess what? It doesn’t always work either. Many couples have longlasting love, and some couples’ love get drastically diminished after a short while married.
Same percentages of successful marriage in all communities. Only difference is that by chassidim, the failed ones never fell in love, and by others, that the love disappeared.
smartcookie, read my post again. I never said all chassidim think that way. I said SOME chassidim. I know that my wife was told that by a few women who were in the hospital at the same time she was.
I don’t think all chassidim are that stupid. I think the amount of chassidim that are stupid is probably the same ratio as any other group.
As for b’showing, if you feel that marriage is only to have kids, then a b’show makes perfect sense. I don’t think it’s naive of me to think that. I think it’s naive of some women to think marriage is only about having kids.
Dating leads to a lot more infatuation than beshowing (as someone previously pointed out.)
Feif- I don’t get your logic. If a woman wants to have 20 children, then she doesn’t need to have a good marriage? She still needs that great man, and they still need SOME love, to a certain extent, if they are planning to live together for some decades.
Just to clarify, I don’t believe beshows are better than dating. It’s a pretty weird system. But so is dating. And both are far from perfect as facts show.
I dont think the reason there are less divorces in the Chassidic communities vs other is NOT because of Beshows vs Dating
I think its the way Divorce is treating in general. In many communities Divorce is not seen as that bad and if the marriage isnt working out, get a divorce and get over it.
However AS I SEE IT (and I could be wrong here) in Chasidic communities divorce is strongly frowned upon and only done in extreme circumstances (Although I think that is changing slightly)
Feif,
Frankly I have no reason to believe hat you said. I can form my opinions from direct observation though.
Z- divorce in Chassidish communities is definitely harder for ONE reason: by the time a Chassidish couple is ready for divorce, they already have a child or two or six.
Zdad,
Perhpas the reason why there are so many more divorces in the MO community is because there is no stigma attached. At a whim, it’s on to the next.
I hardly think that is more respectful.
Um, smartcookie, and in the frum non-Chasidish world why would the first child be born later than by Chasidim? They aren’t.
Derech- so they would have the same problem as the Chassidish couple if they need to divorce.
I am not divorced, but I know plenty of people who are divorced and frankly most (if not all of them had really good reasons for being divorced)
Issues like abuse, Husband refused to get a job, division of household jobs , issues related to the kids.
I dont think their should be a stigma for getting divorced. Why should an abused spouse be stigmatized for getting one and if it means someone who got divorced for a stupid reason isnt stigmitized so be it.
There is a famous couple in Borough park, I dont know if they are Chassidic or Yeshivish (They are not MO, I know that) who really HATE each other and the divorce is nasty than they literally split the house in half.
Should people who hate each other remained married?
Derech: for the first child, you’re correct. There’s a big difference after that. Many people, even in the yeshiva world, wait a bit before having more kids. Many Rabbonim will give a heter for short-term use of birth control after someone has a baby. Chassidim are far less likely to get such a heter. As a whole, chassidim have far more kids than non-chassidim do.
As for MO views of divorce, nishtdayngesheft is wrong. It’s not done at a whim. You’re correct that there is no stigma attached. We look at a divorced person as a regular person. From what I’ve heard, chassidim don’t. A divorcee is treated worse than the average person. MO doesn’t have a stigma with a divorce. In some cases, a divorce is warranted, sometimes even required. Again, it falls under what I said before about the reason for marriage.
nishtdayngesheft, I don’t really care whether you believe me or not. I’ve been called many things, and some of them are probably true. One thing I’m not, however, is a liar. What I told you is true. If you don’t want to believe me, that’s your problem.
Division of household jobs has become a valid reason for divorce?! Boy has society fallen to new lows!
Zahavas and Feif-
In my very Chassidish community, a couple that divorces over petty stuff, gets the stigma, and pple tend to frown upon them.
HOWEVER, a man or woman who ran away for a valid reason (abuse or other extreme situation), is IN NO WAY different than one of our regulars. No one judges them in a negative way. Most people in the community even support them for divorcing.
You people all know about 5 chassidish people, and that’s your view about the thousands of Chassidim worldwide.
Open your eyes a little and get to know the different Chassidish people before judging.
How would you know if a couple divorced for a “stupid reason” or for a “valid reason” Like Abuse
Isnt talking about abuse Lashon Harah? If its Lashon harah then it cant be discussed and the average person doesnt know about it.
Zahavas- in most cases, word gets around.
Feif,
I have no reason to believe you and frankly, I have no problem not believing you. Saying it’s my problem is just not the case.
Both you and zdad are making the same basic mistake, which is understandable seeing what your position is.
The is a huge difference between stigma being attached to divorce (that is is a terrible thing to happen, even when necessary) and attaching stigma to someone who has gone through a divorce.
If the two of you cannot fathom that, it is your own failing, and an indicator of the different outlooks.
Zdad,
Your latest comment about abuse and loshon hora is beyond childish and stupid.
Feif, you are trolling again. Your entire point is that some chassidish people only marry to have kids, so beshow makes sense for those few? OK, similarly some of your cultured people only marry to gain a trophy and show their worth. So for those too, a beshow is suitable. No,even a beshow is too much, they should just need a picture and a few numbers.
So lets start a thread abput this, and word the OP carefully so that most people will think you are implying something about the entire MO community and then watch you folks get all defensive.
Isnt talking about abuse Lashon Harah? If its Lashon harah then it cant be discussed and the average person doesnt know about it. “
Do you think people refrain from talking about it because they believe it is L”H, and NOT because they are made to feel ashamed if it happens to them? Unless I misunderstood your point – with all due respect – you could not be more wrong. When someone commits abuse, letting people know about it is NOT L”H. It is avoiding being oveir on “lo saamod al dam reyacha.” It is helping to prevent a tragedy, because abusers only know how to continue abusing. They do NOT get rehabilitated. They do not stop what they are doing. They do not CARE that they are seriously damaging and in some beyond tragic cases KILLING someone, usually their spouse or a young child. Frum, not frum, Kohein, Levi, or Yisroel, an abuser has to be stopped, no ifs, ands, or buts.
As a side note,
You MOs need to work on your Ahavas Yisroel. I have yet to meet one MO person who is fond of a Chossid.
And hardly any of you met more than a handful of Chassidim in your entire life. If any.
I have no problem with anyone. I like any person who has basic Mentchlichkeit and and Ehrlichkeit.
Broaden your horizon, people, broaden your horizon….
I used to work for Chasidim. I knew alot of them, Especially Satmar.
How many? 8?
And if it was 80, were they ALL terrible people?
And did you ever meet a Chossid that wasn’t Satmar? Because there’s still a whole wide world of Chassidim out there.
I happen (oddly enough) to agree with smart cookie. Being open minded doesn’t mean that you look down at anyone who is “less progressive” then you. Allot of MO that I meet are only open minded one way- that is to the more progressive
I don’t understand how anyone could encourage dating. Where is the tznius in a guy and a girl spending time alone and sometimes in seclusion together? (In the car and possibly wherever they spend their time.) And putting aside the religious aspects, what about the practical aspects. They could fall in blind love because of physical and other superficial attractions rather than the things that truly matter in a marriage. This, I believe, is a large cause of divorce.
000646- why do you say oddly enough?
@Smart there were some Bianers (Not sure of spelling), Skvaers there and quite a few Lubavich (Ive known a few Lubavich in my life)
I was recently at a chassidic wedding in New Square (At that beautiful hall just outside the main part of town) I dont know what kind of Chassidim they were though.
I also recently met a Bobover at a cousins house.
I dont think Ive ever met a Ger, Vishiz or Belz.
Most of my family is Yeshivish not Chasidic, so frankly I am more familiar with that crowd.
Hashem creates emotions and feelings, for instance Hashem creates Hunger for a reason. Do you think Hashem would create something BAD?
Maybe you dont know the reason for it, but it doesnt mean its BAD.
Since Hashem doesnt create BAD things, how could a feeling that Hashem created like infatuation be BAD. Hashem created it for a reason
Sugar is very good for you. You need it to live.
I personally dated my husband for 10 months. Best decision of my life. Yes some aspects may have been difficult but it turned out amazing. The reason for this was that I had some awful experiences when shidduch dating, people held things back, a lot o Loshon hurrah and scheming. I needed to know WHO I was marrying. Yes ofcourse I didn’t really “know” my husband in the way I do now, but I knew him a heck of a lot better than my friends who mamish went on 4 dates before getting engaged. None of my friends did bshows as we are not chassidish so I can’t really speak on that. I do however know unfortunately many people under 24 years old who are divorced and only one that I can think of dated over a couple of months. I have found that in the shidduch world people are so worried about their child not finding a shiduch ( understandably) that they hold back what they may not deem important. I know many unfortunately girls who married boys everything was beautiful both sides were ecstatic and it turns out he boy had been to rehab for drug use and relapsed into he first year of marriage. Those of you saying shidduchim don’t properly vet a shiduch or research the way beshows do is false. They/we do. So many calls are made and rabbonim spoken to etc. every situation is different. I just don’t like sitting here reading about people basically saying beshows is the best way and that it makes no difference dating you don’t know them any better. That is just false. I can safely say I was in love with my husband before and on our wedding date. He is my best friend and I wish the same happiness that I have for EVERYONE. Btw I did not just get married so please don’t say it’s newly wedded bliss. It is how I feel an I know he feels the same. B’hatzlacha to everyone looking for their basheret!
I believe it is fair to say that there are proportionally many more divorces among those that dated their spouse in the 10 month range than among those that had in the range of about 4 dates prior to engagement.
I believe it is fair to say that there are proportionally many more divorces among those that dated their spouse in the 10 month range than among those that had in the range of about 4 dates prior to engagement.
Yes, but to attribute that to the dating process is overly simplistic. It is much more likely that it is due to societal norms in the communities which do each type of dating.
The relevant question is whether the communities that currently do one, would have less divorces if they would switch to the other.
Otherwise, you are just arguing that they should switch their whole community culture.
I don’t know that I believe that. Not to say that everyone should do 1 thing and be done with it, but every person is different and something that works for one person may not work for another. All I know is this way worked better for me, and I don’t think it makes me any more likely to chas v’s get divorced than my friend who dated for 6 days. On the contrary one friend in particular who has been married about the same length of time as I have, STILL says she feels uncomfortable without makeup around her husband, can’t use the bathroom when he is home, won’t scarf down food infront of him etc. in my case by the time I was engaged I was past those insecurities. Well the first and third :). I also have a friends who dated in a few short weeks who are very happy and comfortable and content bH. There is too much judging and high horsing on this site. I’m tellin you the negativity toward “semi chilled” yeshivish and GFB Modern orthodox is scary. We are all a part of BY we should start acting like it.
My issue with all the so-called research (and what is this anyway, a shidduch or a term paper?) is that it does not necessarily turn up important inyanim. Rabbanim see congregants, not the individual young man or woman, unless they have a personal close kesher. Rebbeim see “best boys,” (read: good learners)and mechanchos see girls with a specific aspect of that person’s personality and character, and often serious flaws can be hidden, because they relate to interpersonal relationships that manifest themselves with someone who is NOT a chaver or rebbe.
Family members often only see what they want to see in their son or daughter, and honestly, I cannot fault them for that. However, a girl I know was redt a shidduch by the sister of a young man. The girl was very pesistent,and the other girl didn’t want to hurt her feelings by continuing to make excuses not to go out with him. When he came to pick her up, it was abundantly clear to her and to anyone with eyes and ears, that this young man was borderline developmentally challenged. A loving family might not want to acknowledge that fact to themselves, and I doubt anyone who is a friend or a rov of theirs would be willing to be brutally honest about that to a stranger. The vetting process is deeply flawed by its very design. The very people whom one names as their references, are close enough to them to presumably ONLY speak their praises.
How many times have I been called as a “reference” for someone (another term which bothers me – it ain’t a job interview), often unexpectedly, and been put on the spot, because I know of something that could be an issue, but it’s my friend’s child and I am not going to be responsible for shterring a shidduch.
I believe that time spent in someone’s company on a regular and continuous basis, has more of a chance of uncovering certain issues, though not all,to be sure. And some people are VERY clever at hiding their true personalities until it is too late.
Oomis I completely agree
As far as comments made about teachers seeing only certain things about you go, I have received wonderful references for various reasons from teachers who barely know me. My mom sometimes calls these shidduch contacts and they know less about the person they’re being a reference for than my mom does (and she’s only the sort-of shadchan).
It’s actually a real scream, because my parents went to PTA and one of my teacher goes to my dad and says, “Oh, your daughter is a wonderful girl, so intelligent–” and then he does a double take and asks, “Um— what grade is she in again?” And then he shows my dad my class picture on the seating chart to make sure he’s got the right person.
But either way I’ll take the compliment :).
As far as comments made about teachers seeing only certain things about you go, I have received wonderful references for various reasons from teachers who barely know me.”
There you go. No one wants to say negative things about someone who is proposed as a shidduch, and bear the achrayus of messing things up for that person. No one wants to say L”H. No family friend wants it to get back to the parents of the prospective shidduch, that they spoke badly of that person’s child, even if it were warranted.
“You MOs need to work on your Ahavas Yisroel. I have yet to meet one MO person who is fond of a Chossid. And hardly any of you met more than a handful of Chassidim in your entire life. If any.”
Smaartcookie, I am chassidish and I know plenty of MOs who aren’t as judgemental and show plenty of Ahavas Yisroel to ALL Yidden. Just because some of the MO posters have their issues with us, doesn’t mean they all do. Feif doesn’t represent the general MO community.
nistdayngesheft: in response to your response to the car analogy, if a parent decides that a bright red lexus with the lights that blind other drivers, a rooftop window to afford you air without having it whip your face…is best for you but yoyu felt that red is to showy, you want lights that dont blind other drivers, and you prefer no roftop window, would you buy it so quickly? Even though it has all the other ammenities and modern updates?
Yes chassidim do alot of research, so do non-chassidim.
Yes there is more trust in the chassidishe world, and with the trust of their parents, non chassidim go out with the boy/girl and finish off the ‘checking out’ of the girl/boy personally.
Like most have mentioned, you do what is good for you, which one is better? whichever one gets you to your basherte!
And what is with all the MO and Chassidishe bashing?! Kol Yisrael areivim! People, wake up! I have many acquatances of all different sides of the Jewish spectrum and i respect them all according to their standards! Whether they wear a full sheitel, a hat, no shaitel, half their hair showing, its not my place to put them down! Shame on all of us!
When someone said that the amount of information that is revealed is equivalent to being on a third date before a beshow, what does that mean? Like are medical issues included, and circumstantial stuff?
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