Beshow vs. Dating

dating, because you get a better idea of who and what they are. on a beshow, they are all stiff since usually the both sets of parents are sitting in the next room listening to every word!

ok you can say you only get to know the person after your married. However I’d say you see alot more through dating than you would see on a Beshow. I also think it’s important for a potential couple to discuss thier views and plans for THIER future rather than have the parents decide what’s best for them. talking things through avoids Alot more resentment later on.

I also think the boy/girl has to be mature enough to handle things. parents should teach thier children at an early age how to think for themselves.. How to be an individual etc… alot of parents make the mistake of having thier children relive thier lives… Never ever force a “child” Dater/Beshower into sth out of peerpreasure or age..etc… that will only be detrimental to the “child”.

It’s incredible how many times a first date is a flop.

Therefore, I think it would save a lot of time/money/bother etc, for everyone to have one, or even two beshows before a typical date.

Wolf – what does it depend on ?

As a proud MO I’m sure you know what my vote is…

I was speaking to a chassidic co worker today who just recently got married. She told me her parents did research on her husband FOR A YEAR & they had two B’shows, 4 hours apart.

Oy…not for me..

The point is that after marriage there is commitment, which is a game changer.

Wolf – what does it depend on ?

Among other things, the person, his/her upbringing, his/her expectations, etc.

The Wolf

Alot has to do with the way you were brought up. Everyone is different and their needs are different. A family member of ours had a beshow , got married and struggled for 3 years in a horrible environment. They divorced. He dated his next kallah for months, saw her everyday. Got divorced after 9 months. He says you NEVER know a person until you live with them! He claims the beshow is better, its pure tachlis, with dating you are not focused on the important stuff. Hatzlocha to all of you who are still looking for their basherte!

Many Elter-Bubbies and Zeides, at this point, met in person under various conditions, but were not simply introduced to each other with the parents listening in. They were also born in a different world, and what worked then does not necessarily work now.

Beshow may still work for some individuals. While it is also true that you do not really know someone until (well after) you marry the person, you can, however, learn a very surprisingly large amount during dating and it is therefore wrong to deny the opportunity to date to those people who need that time.

So it is quite primitive and therefore unrealistic to expect two relatively sophisticated people to live in consonance with diracheha darchei noam when they are not given the time to determine whether or not they wish to spend the next 100 or so years with this other person. Even if they don’t get divorced, CH”V, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have been happier had they been allowed to date first, even with their current spouse. Again, diracheha darchei noam, not necessarily the derech of the culture of what happens to have been done many, many years ago. This does not mean that every couple who’ve dated are happy. But that also doesn’t mean you might as well make their odds of success dramatically worse.

You also can’t compare the divorce rates from one to another (i.e. beshow to dating), because the main reasons for a divorce in a beshow is obviously due to the beshow and denial of dating. Whereas by dating, it is external, which could be anything from something covered-up before-hand to simple immaturity in married life to lack of communication to other things, all of which have nothing to do with the process of how they meet, when that process is dating. By a beshow, however, there is little, if any, time to determine if any of this could potentially be an issue.

So if you take out the “external” factors, it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them. On the other hand, it’s quite easy to see how the couple might not have divorced since they were denied the opportunity to date in favor of beshowing them.

If it were just a matter of “live and let live”, then I would not write most of what I’ve written. But I feel that many people who are put through this beshow system are being denied that which they need, and which has painful and costly ramifications later on, not just on them, but on their families and children, etc.

So it’s not okay to just say “it’s okay for them to do it”; it’s not, at least for some of them, and those who feel it might not be for them should find a neutral Rav to discuss the matter with.

May Hashem be misameiach all of His people and redeem us all BB”A.

Neither of these shidduch systems are perfect. However, here are some thoughts:

1. As a chassidish girl, I know exactly how much time and energy is put into getting information on the other party before a beshow is arranged. But people lie through their teeth when it comes to shidduchim. I’ve seen hearing people go deaf and seeing people go blind when they’re asked information about someone who they’d rather not talk about.

2. Unless a girl/boy is mature enough to know what it is s/he’s trying to get out of the dating process, it’s one big waste of time. Spending hours enxchanging funny yeshiva/sem/camp experiences does NOT count for getting to know the other person for real. It’s a pity that immature daters get the same amount of real talk done in all their dates put together, as a chassidish couple can do in 2-4 beshows.

3. Date or beshow, you only truly know the person once you’re married.

“but they do say however the amount of HAPPY litvishe marriages outweighs the chassidim by far!”

How is this possible to know?

I think it works if you grew up chassidish and this is how you’ve always known things are done and you expect to marry this way. Otherwise, it’s not a good idea- the rest of us are used to the dating model, and also tend to have more secularized notions of love and stuff (due to being generally less sheltered).

If Beshow works for people in a certain culture that is great and nobody can say that they are wrong for doing things that way. Just don’t pretend that the couple knows each other before they get married in such a case-they do not. It is an arranged marriage (doesn’t mean its wrong, but let’s call a spade a spade)

Also saying silly unproven statements like Chasidishe/or Dating marriages are better or happier is stupid there are too many variables involved in marriage and divorce to make statements like that without doing an extremely comprehensive and thorough scientific study and to the best of my knowledge this has not been (and due to the private nature of such things it probably cannot be) done

i think gerrer marriages are the happiest.

“it’s hard to see how any divorces could be caused by having allowed the couple to date rather than beshowing them.”

One word: Infatuation.

“With a Beshow are the young people allowed to say no?”

Of course. That’s what it’s for.

Serious questions, if you parents spent a long time finding this person and you just dont like them for whatever reason. Is there pressure to say yes.

Beshows are much better. You can date so many people so much faster if you just have to date them once before deciding whether or not to get married.

Among my dating friends, the record was 250 girls. But among my beshow friends–they were hitting over 600! Most have lost count, but average 10-15 a month.

i think its really what youre used to. my friend got engaged after one beshow- the chassan didnt even go home! they drank l’chaim right then!!!!

wolf- purple people are bad.

HaKatan: Generally the Elter-Z’s and Elter-B’s, and their ancestors going back doros and doros, did have arranged marriages (whatever the mechanics were in arranging it.) And don’t be too confident that the young couple can do a better job in determining whether it would be a happy marriage than their parents can. It may very well be the reverse is the case.

im not sure why you thought my posts were serious. my second post was meant to illustrate the ridiculousness of my first. seriously, come on.

Feif: You are way off base in how incorrect you are about the reality.

To Zdads analogy to buying a car,

What about if you had done all your research and spent hundreds of hours figuring out just what you want in a car and which car and what it should look like and how it should perform and what specifically you need a car for, and then you pick out a car. Then you go to the showroom to look at a car exactly like that. How much time do you then need to close the deal, perhaps a quick test drive to see if it is what you think it is based on your research. The test drive will be much more focused and to the point.

On the other hand, if you do not do the research before and just take cars for a test drive, how do you know you are going to get whats best for you? Or even what you need.

Any marriage where one is subservient to the other is not a good thing IMHO.

nishtdayngesheft: If a MO person had actually told you that, I’d say you have a valid point. However, I doubt anyone actually told you that.

My wife was actually told by more than one chassidic woman that the only purpose for marriage was to have children. My wife asked her, “When you are no longer able to have children, would you tell your husband to divorce you and marry some 18 year old girl so he could have more children?”

The woman responded that no, she wouldn’t like it, and maybe she needed to question what she’d been taught.

Any btw Feif, most people who want marriage,chassidish or MO, do plan to have children together. But that’s not the ONLY reason to get married.

And even if it would be, it doesn’t mean that they can just marry anyone. They still need to get along and love each other.

So your statement about beshowing because they’re only doing it to have kids, is so senseless. And I’m glad you think all Chassidim are that stupid.