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bochur24: I don’t see how you are invalidating my questions or point. You are bringing proof about changing OTHER peoples destiny. This thread and my point are about OUR own destiny.
truth be told – I believe what you are saying is bordering on kefirah unless I am missing your point. To say that we have control over our own destiny is like taking Hashem out of the equation. It is exactly “Kochi VeOtzem Yodi…”!! I have learned Shaar HaBitachon several times and, again, unless I am misunderstanding you (which is possible), what you are saying is very close to kefirah. Besides for the Chovos Halevovos, see also Daas Tevunos near the beginning where he lists the 5 types of minus that prevent a person from accepting Yichud Hashem with a full heart. The third type has 2 distinct possibilities in it and I believe you should see the first one. I am sorry if I am being blunt but what you are saying is potentially very dangerous.
tbt: I am not suffering. I am not divorced and you did not say anything that hurt my feelings. I do feel strongly about this topic. I just happened to know a few people who are divorced and they went through such geheinom ,where getting out was the only option. I do agree with you that in our society, some marriages, at the first sign of difficulty, just crumble R”L.
bochur24:
* Bordering on Kefira
* Daass Tevunos
Say, a person takes a hammer and slams his toe. As a result he spends two weeks in the hospital in pain. He did it at work, so his employer fired him. Etc. etc. He suffered a lot.
Sorry, HaShem gave him a choice and gives most of us this choice every day. To absolve ourselves of responsibility, that may be Kefirah.
(Many many times people do suffer in a way that is not easily comprehensible. Hashem does have an exact cheshbon though)
If a person did not get the Mon at the door of his tent, he had to go out and collect it from a little further away. Was that bashert. Yes and no. It was bashert based upon his current madreiga. However, the tzadikim got their mon at their door. He did have an option of becoming a tzadik.
This is the exact opposite of “It is exactly ‘Kochi VeOtzem Yodi…’!!”. Everyone wanted the mon at their door. They DID have that option through doing what Hashem wanted.
doodle jump:
please, what does ‘kefirah’ mean?
tbt – what I am saying is that if you choose to marry someone, work in a certain field, or anything else for that matter, no outcome is a result of your efforts. The marriage will succeed or fail if Hashem wants it to. The job will bring you a good parnassah or not if Hashem wants it to, etc. And yes, Hashem sometimes does “shlep” you in a certain direction. That DOES NOT mean you don’t have a choice. You have absolute free will, in fact. However, Hashem will pull you toward the outcome HE wants, regsrdless of what you choose. And in your example of hitting your own foot, I will posit a very “crazy” theory that if Hashem doesn’t ant you to spend 2 weeks in the hospital you won’t! BTW, I am not saying that things that happen in your life can’t be reward and punishment for what you do. Therefore, the mon is a bad example the way you said it. By that reasoning, you could say that there is c”v no point in tefillah. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that you may do everything right or everything wrong in any given situation and still, the outcome of the situation will be completely independent of your efforts. i.e. you can invest in a very lucrative stock that is pretty much a guarantee to make a 15% return in a month and if you make 15% after a month, I guarantee that Hashem had a way of giving you that money independent of your investment. Also, if you lost 15%, Hashem had a way of taking that money from you independent of the investment.
P.S. I don’t think it is beyond your so-called “simplicity” to learn shaar habitachon. Please learn it a few times. I am not being derogatory in any way. I mean it sincerely. Also, if you look back at your life in the last, say, 2 years, you will notice countless times where you wanted very strongly to go in a certain direction and put your efforts into it and Hashem shlepped you in a differrent direction no matter how much kochos you put in. This should be some proof of what I am saying
bochur24: I re-read your posts. I may have been unclear in what I wrote in my earlier posts. I still stand with them. Not at all taking Hashem out of the equation. On the contrary, believing in Schar V’onesh means excepting Hashaem’s rule and that nothing gets past Him.
always here: kefirah = heresy
However, Schar V’Onesh doesn’t necessarily have to do with what happens to you in this life.
bochur24: it sure does! Everything is for a reason and exact. Everything is midah kneged midah.
If you’re talking about tzadik v’ra loi, that’s a whole different question, that may be asked, like the nevieim including Moshe asked.
and this is why I said it doesn’t NECESSARILY have an affect on this life. I am not sure how you can say “Hashem controls what happens to you” and also say “you control what happens to you”. That sounds paradoxical to me. please elaborate and give examples. Assume for a minute that your schar veoneish ALL comes after this life. Is there anything in that statement that is contrary to what you are saying or the truth of the matter?
BTW, like I said: most of what we are talking about here is pretty much semantics. I feel that you must live through your life at the level you are holding. This means that at each turn you definitely have to do your hishtadlus otherwise you may not be ro’ui to get whatever is that is coming to you. However, hishtadlus is relative to where you are holding. For some people it means getting a job. For others it means davening. Obviously, one has to be holding at a very high level to really feel that his hishtadlus is solely davening. Most likely there are very few people if any who are alive today who can claim such a level. However, the fact remains that Hashem has autonomy and your hishtadlus is not what is causing the result. This is clear according to everyone who writes about bitachon. in fact, the chovos halevovos is mashma that everything that happens was encoded into briyas haolam other than your choices themselves.
bachur24-
This is clear according to everyone who writes about bitachon
So you’ve seen everything written on the subject? Have you read through Moreh Nevuchim? Here’s one easy ???? ????, see the ??? ????? in Parashas Vayeshev, where Reuven made the suggestion to throw Yosef into the pit.
Oh and just curious, how do you explain the Gemara ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????
I think that when Cedarhurst said “If your not Ashkenazi you can have more than one bashert (or be one of several basherts for your husband.)” she meant that Sefardim are technically allowed to practice polygamy. Although, it is frowned upon and illegal in the West (and consequently against halacha).
bochur24: I’m starting to get confused over here. What are we disagreeing about? Please, in a few short words, post your position, then post my position. No proofs.
Example
bochur24:
tbt:
After you’ve posted each of our positions clearly, please feel free to post your thoughts and proofs. Thank you
If it’s too difficult, how about leaving it for another time. Think about it. Discuss it with a Rov, Rebbe or friend. It may be true. Thank you
yitayningwut – Firstly, please don’t take me that literally. Of course I didn’t mean that I have seen EVERY mareh makom.
Also, that Ohr HaChaim clearly says that it was in regards to proving whether Yosef was CHAYAV misah. again, just because a person is not literally chayav misah in a way that b’nei odom (like the shevatim) see doesn’t mean that Hashem will not kill him.
As far as your quote from the famous hakol biyedei Shomayim…, I stand corrected. In a case of absolute peshiya, it is mashma from the meforshim that one can affect something in this life.
tbt – here are the positions as I see them:
bochur24: One cannot affect occurrences in his life; he can only affect his choices (also just amended as per the beginning of this post). An example of this would perhaps be choosing whether to marry someone. I feel that yes, you have the choice to marry someone, but that that choice is limited to your choosing right or wrong and not whether the marriage actually takes place.
tbt: One can affect the occurences in his life as well as his choices. As per the above case, one can choose to marry someone even though Hashem does not have it planned for him to marry someone.
bochur24: Thank you. I think we are actually in agreement (for the most part).
You said: “I feel that yes, you have the choice to marry someone, but that that choice is limited to your choosing right or wrong and not whether the marriage actually takes place.”
Then we are in agreement.
Right. So Shimshon didn’t do what Hashem would have preferred Shimshon do, but he ended up marrying exactly who was Bashert for him since bashert means it was ordained by Hashem and nothing can happen without it being ordained by Hashem.
It known that the Staipler said that in all of Lakewood onlt two people married their zivug rishon. So bashert doesn’t really play a roll.
You get married to someone you like, and as with everything in life, you learn on the road how to make your marriage successful. What worked in you parents home may not work for you, becasuse you are not your father and your wife is not your mother. So with trial and error (yes, there will be errors) we learn to perfect our marriages.
tbt: I understand what you are saying. But let’s be real here for a moment. A person can do ALL the checking that can be done, everything comes up roses. Then, after the wedding,R”L, all kinds of things are beginning to reveal themselves. I am sure that you have heard of such cases. Did that person not check and called to find out info. Of course that was done. Now What? Suffer for the rest of their life? What about that children? It is a parent’s achrayus to take of their physical needs and psychological and emotional ones. At what point does a person says: AD KAHN!
bachur24-
You haven’t responded as to whether you are well versed in the Rambam’s works. I assume you are not. Take a look at the last of the 8 Perakim, you will find that the Rambam understands ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? to mean that every action that is a lav or an aseh is fully within one’s bechirah. That is, it isn’t that Hashem gives us bechirah, or an illusion of it, in instances in which there are mitzvos. It’s the other way around, there are certain things which Hashem originally gave man full autonomy over, and those are all of his actions, and because that is so, he gave us mitzvos in those areas. Look it up and think about it.
“the last of the 8 perakim” of what? I am not sure how what you are saying is a disagreement to what I have been saying.
The Rambam’s introduction to Avos is called ???? ?????.
doodle jump:
I have one word: BALONEY!
I’ve heard all these sob stories as well. Then I’ve seen how these poor victimized “stable” wives who, through no-fault of their own, ended up with these “monsters”, behave during and following the divorce process.
What happened behind closed doors is unknown. What they did/are doing is known. And usually it is far from aidel. These caring mothers withhold their children from the father, accuse the father in court of the most heinous crimes- which always gets reversed in the end, stoop to anonymously accusing them on the internet (on shmutz sites) of pures shmutz and having them atop the google list, on and on.
bochur24: I’m glad we agree. Just to clarify. Shimshon was punished terribly for whom he married. He married a Pilishty, even though he converted her, for the sake of his marriage. So Hashem allowed him the choice but, he chose wrongly. (Here he should have known better..)
Well, I am not talking about fakers. I am talking about real cases. Are there bad apples out there? Yes. But I am talking about real people who have tried everything. Is it bashert when they had to divore? I don’t know. I just know that it was the best solution.
doodle jump: Yes, real cases exist. They are far and few in between. The vast majority of them are baloney.
yitayningwut – Thank you for enlightening me. I saw that piece and certainly you were accurate with your paraphrase of the Rambam and what I have been saying is not in line with that. I will do as you suggested and discuss this with my rebbeim since it is a chiddush to me. I will only say that I do remember hearing about a different but similar topic which the Rambam discussed that when it comes to matters of philosophy, we don’t always hold like the Rambam (I am not talking about the allegations that he may have been influenced by Aristotle). Nonetheless, this is not my place to argue with him so I will leave it to my rebbeim. Seriously, though, thanks for the discussion. I appreciate it.
bachur24-
I am very impressed by your response. ???? ??? ????? ????.
I just broke up with someone. Not a divorce- I broke up with a boyrfriend. The problem is we both thought that Hakadosh Baruch Hu Planned that we were meant for each other. We had so much in common. What went wrong?
You both have to want to make it work. It doesn’t just happen. People get divorced after being married for years. It doesn’t mean that they weren’t each other’s bashert.
Why did You break up then?
I am sorry for you having to experience the pain of a breakup. That said, only you and he know what went wrong. Search your heart for the answer and learn from the experience, pain and all. Hatzlacha rabbah. May you find your true zivug soon.
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