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I have two negative stories to share i view them as negative but perhaps i am wrong i don’t tell them to besmirch klal yisroel chas vshalom but to show we are headed in a wrong direction.
I saw on the news a frum woman was interviewed she belonged to an all female gym but still felt uncomfortable wearing gym clothing and wore a skirt instead she was kicked out because she was told it is a hazard i think this is logical a skirt can get caught in an exercise machine and cause her to be hurt the gym has to protect themselves from legal action in this litigious society.
The second story i know about firsthand it happened chol hamoed in a bowling alley near me a rabbi came in with a bunch of boys and demanded that the televisions and the radios be turned off the owner who knows his clientele likes to watch sports while bowling said no the Rabbi then called the corporate office and they ordered the alley owner/manager to shut off the tvs and radios.
My point is never in our history have we made other bend to our will we were too busy being tortured scapegoated and murdered to make demands of anyone and while its a very good thing that we live in a country that allows us to live free its that same freedom that is allowing SOME people to abuse it and make demands on others, I contend that this sort of thing would never have happened even 25 years ago i will listen to your opinion.
Next thing you know, we’re going to force them to let us keep Shabbos.
Seriously, though, you have to take these stories with a grain of salt. If these were reported in the secular media, you know that they invariably embellish these stories and leave out facts.
For most frum Jews, America starting with the 20th century is our first experience in a capitalist system. In a market economy, consumers get to bend the business to their will. The bowling alley managers were reacting to the threat to take their business elsewhere.
If the skirt was a safety issue, they can address it through a waiver of liability. That they didn’t do so suggests violation of the statutory (and common law) duty of a merchant to serve all customers.
In regards to bowling – maybe he specifically asked for it ahead of time or maybe he rented out part of it or the whole alley. Its always easy to criticize.
I also dont see why in the world its your business.
Perhaps the rabbi had made arrangements with the corporate owners to have the TVs off on that day of chol hamoed and the local yodel working that day was being obnoxious because he didn’t know the bosses wanted the TVs and radios turned off and already arranged it so that a busload of boys could be there.
oh come now, Joe. are you really that deperate to make it work in his favor?
I quote one of the CR sages from another thread:
if you substitute violence with hatred or contempt i see a similar concept
“It is without doubt that certain actions give the antisemites more motivation and impetus to act violently, which they do in response to specific activities they deem provocative even if objectively it might not be. That isn’t an excuse for a Jew to engage in an action that will result in violence against the Jews.”
Syag, as much as I don’t think we should be unnecessarily provoking negative feelings anywhere, that comparison is over the top.
The OP raises a valid point. Jews running around and asserting themselves in general – and for religious reasons especially – causes animosity towards Jews. Mostly, the hatred is baseless, sadly enough, it is often validated. Even when it isn’t our fault, and even when it isn’t fair, it still provokes backlash.
The feeling of entitlement – that they are ?????? to give you special treatment – is an attitude that brings the most negative attention. Often, with just an apologetic smile and kind request, you can get your way without making the Chillul Hashem.
DaasYochid, I’m surprised. Your opinions in the past were allot more balanced. The OP does have a point. Why does anyone have to go between the goyim to prove themselves different were unnecessary. Keeping Shabbos while holding a job is one thing. Going to a gym – there are jewish places too.
In general, if there are other options it falls under the caragory of provocative.
555, I thank you for the compliment. I do think that’s a valid point, and that we do have to remember that we are in golus. I just don’t think we can make a blanket statement that things are getting worse in this regard based on two stories about which we don’t really know all of the facts.
I was once in Astroland and a man WEARING A SHTREIMAL went on the cyclone. Needless to say his shtreimal fell off. He had taanos to them that they weren’t going to stop the ride for him to get his shtreimal. They did say they would retrieve it at the end of the day, not to loose the customers waiting on line. That does not fall under the category of anti-semitism even though he actually felt, at the time, that it did. Some minimum common sense includes NOT going on a rollercoaster wearing a shtreimal.
I think that’s closer to the point the OP is trying to make.
What about the story about the guy who dropped his iPad and wanted them to stop the ride for him to retrieve it – would that have made the same point?
DY, Probably not. Nobody can say anti-semitism about an ipad.
Goq, If the woman went on tv then she was obviously doing what she was doing for attention and NOT LSHMAH. People don’t seem to realize making a kiddush hashem does not equal getting the noble peace prize.
What about the story about the guy who dropped his iPad and wanted them to stop the ride for him to retrieve it – would that have made the same point?
Actually, I believe a religious Jew trying to force anything through can cause animosity. Obviously, when he is trying to force something related to religion it is infinitely worse.
when he is trying to force something related to religion it is infinitely worse.
Why?
I do believe that there is indeed somewhat of a problematic attitude in the frum world towards accommodations for our particular needs. As yekke2 put it, The feeling of entitlement – that they are ?????? to give you special treatment – is an attitude that brings the most negative attention. Often, with just an apologetic smile and kind request, you can get your way without making the Chillul Hashem.
That said, I do not believe that either of the examples cited in the OP are displays of such a negative attitude. As akuperma pointed out, if the gym was only concerned about safety/insurance they could have had the lady wearing a skirt sign a waiver, or they could have banned her from certain machines.
As for the Rabbi getting the bowling alley’s TVs turned off, while I do not agree to the underlying attitude of making the whole place change to fit one’s own standards, I do not believe that going over the managers head is the chillul Hashem its being made out to be. (And apparently, the corporate office sided with the Rabbi.)
Syag Lchochma:
First, an important preemptive clarification; I do not in any way condone behavior by frum people that is condensing, nasty, disrespectful, overly demanding, etc. It is wrong, it is a chillul Hashem, and it must stop.
However, I do not believe that your comparison was an accurate one. I believe that there is a world of a difference between provoking those who hate us into actually attacking us, and engendering feeling of dislike from people who otherwise seem to have no problem at all with us. Both of them are clearly wrong, but only one of them is actually dangerous.
DY, Why? ????????? ?? ????
give them their space!
mw13, You don’t think making them turn off the tv and music falls under the category of entitlement?!?
Because you are drawing attention to our religion in a negative situation. You are essentially showing them that we are here with our religion, and they must “shtell tzu” to us.
If the woman gladly went on TV, then I imagine she wasn’t so tznius-conscious after all…
Why? ????????? ?? ????
give them their space!
I don’t understand how ?????????? ?? ???? relates to giving them their space, or how either relate to the difference between being too aggressive regarding religion or mundane matters. ?????????? ?? ???? relates to giving them their space, or how either relate to the difference between being too aggressive regarding religion or mundane matters.
Yekke2, doesn’t anything someone who looks like a religious Jew do draw attention to the religion?
As I wrote, they can both cause negative attitudes towards Jews. But there is a difference between forcing them to cooperate with Judaism and forcing them to cooperate with Jews.
Such a difference as to declare that, “it is infinitely worse”?
There might be a difference, but I think it’s more subtle than that.
What do you think the difference is?
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