Being sensitive towards tragedy

You want to talk about photo ops. see how the Republican politicians take advantage of something they voted against:
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1971612/republicans-promote-pandemic-relief-they-voted-against.html.

I did not make it to town this week. So I looked it up on Hebrew books.

The Chasam Sofer is discussing the passing of a tzaddik, in a specific context. Namely, one leader passing on as averting disaster for his followers. He even writes that this does not apply if two leaders pass on together. Along the way he gets into a discussion about a young leader who does not yet have followers. This is not relevant to what just occurred. Though it is similar to what was said from the Chofetz Chaim. A thought that follows is, that one leader passing would have averted such an absence.

WHY DON’T YOU POST THIS? I HAVE SENT IT MANY TIMES?

I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
He said:
כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.

Following is a Kabbalistic explanation of how this works:
ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:
However, I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be Menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach.

To the OP – Actually? I think among the BIGGEST korbon’s in this tragedy are Aryeh Deri, and the organizers of the event. How Deri must feel, is beyond what I can fathom, way worse than when he was imprisoned. Somewhat like that guy in the Modiin region who chauffered a neighbor’s child in hot weather, and forgot he was in the car.

The crazy thing is, Deri had not even wanted to be in the knesset after he was imprisoned – they begged him. I wonder if there’s a support group for people like that. That’s probably why Rav Shteinman was so adamant about a toned-down levaya.

I’m sure he very much remembered what happened at Rav Wosner’s levaya.

So many people are attributing the tragedy to things like tzniut, talking in shul etc. I’m not saying those aren’t factors. What i am saying is that the most obvious which may be less talked about is: This is an immature, infantile generation, which doesn’t look before it leaps. Doesn’t think before it acts. Isn’t roeh es hanolad, to think of the outcome of every one of its actions. For example, that giving kids motorized bikes and letting them drive recklessly, is lots of excruciating irreversible pain waiting to happen to the victims they knock down.

ywnjudy> organizers of the event….most obvious which may be less talked about is: This is an immature, infantile generation, which doesn’t look before it leaps.

I don’t know whether we mean the same thing, but there is a direct explanation here – they went there against health regulation and advice of some gedolim. I am ok with generalizing to the sins of generation, but I don’t understand those who ponder about the even without considering most direct explanation (unless it is done in the context of not hurting people directly affected by the tragedy).

There was a call for a fast on front page here. Do many people plan to participate? There was no hint in the call that this calls to reflect on the behaviors that called the disaster.

I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
He said:
כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.

Following is a Kabbalistic explanation of how this works:
ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:
However, I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be Menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach

ywnjudy > Covid factor, as much as the jostling-crowd-factor unsafety factor.

there might be a correlation here. Presumably, many people listened to doctors, police, gedolim, parents .. so, the ones who went were to begin with, unsafe people. So, they were a little more unsafe there than a usual crowd.

The issues are even physically the same – in both cases – covid and crowds – the mitzva is to respect other people and stay away out of their private 4 amot, and actively protect them when needed.

Crowds trumpling on people happens, but having it happen ina Jewish crowd is almost like seeing them eating treif – not normal. It all starts with one person pushing (slightly) another, then 2nd person pushes third, and at the same time somewhere ahead there is an obstacle. But how could the first person move into the 2nd person’s space? and how the 2nd person did not have space between him and the next person, etc. Same issue as students of R Akiva – lack of respect to other people.

Always_Ask:
In this instance i wouldn’t be quick to judge, because i read there was suspicious wetness on the metal ramp which created an abnormal slippery situation. Even in normal circumstances, people make missteps. So i wouldn’t judge them regarding “pushing or shoving”.

But now especially, after finding out about the Givat Zev bleachers tragedy, we must start analyzing the “metaphysical” aspect of all this, namely, that the special “shemirah” is now being withheld, and thus it’s currently inadvisable to be “somech al ha’neis” anymore.

See, as far back as decades ago, i used to witness ongoing open miracles in Israel, where little kids, sans adult supervision, would be recklessly running on stone walls which had no railings, coupled with sheer drops to concrete way below. Yet they all remained unscathed! Having witnessed such scenes ongoingly, I have ZERO doubt, that zillions of malachim have been constantly vigilant to guard the many happy-go-lucky people in Israel. As in “shomer psayim Hashem”.

Without a doubt, malachim have also worked overtime during every PAST Lag B’Omer in Meron. And that’s why the world hasn’t heard of such tragedies previously.

I mean, think about it. Isn’t it uncanny that a similar incident took place in Givat Zev so soon after Meron? How many numerous times have dense charedi crowds used bleachers in the past – ones which also probably weren’t built too well?
…And isn’t it uncanny that suddenly, the Iron Dome became so “overwhelmed”?

Do you really really think the aforesaid malachim couldn’t have mopped up the slippery wetness at Meron AND also prevented the people from toppling on each other? I myself had a miracle happen one Friday in Israel, when visiting Hebrew University, which me & my mother became aware was a near ghost town. Every which way we went trying to exit, was locked. I panicked, realizing it was soon Shabbos, so I scurried down the hall peeking into classrooms, then eventually found a chossid at a shtender inside one of the rooms, who seemed to be davening. He didn’t say a word, just motioned to me to wait, and eventually he led us, as well as a lost backpacker down a stationary escalator to a concrete platform, where we saw the Egged bus approaching. During all that time, he never said a word, just walked ahead of us, and we followed with sighs of relief. I’m sure that was Eliyahu Hanavi making sure we got back in time for Shabbos, because why on earth would a chossid be in an abandoned university in East Jerusalem on a Friday?

In summation, there’s times filled with open miracles, other times containing hidden miracles, and finally (such as many current happenings), the withholding of shemirah.

>> thus it’s currently inadvisable to be “somech al ha’neis” anymore.

I understand your sentiment re:miracles in Israel, and I hate to contradict with cold numbers: for example, if you look at deaths at auto accidents in Israel – they were way higher than all developed countries (500 per mln vehicles in 1970 v. 300 in France and 100-200 in other countries). Now it is 100 v 50 to 100 in most countries. So, those kids running without railings were growing into adults who drove the same way … maybe there is a benign explanation that at the time less people had vehicles and they were from a more reckless category.

there is also something eery with end of covid in Israel – before anywhere else, was immediately followed by Meron and then Hamas …

Still your statement above presumes that we are to rely on miracles which sounds like contradicting conclusion of the Gemora in Shabbos 32 which discusses exactly the case – people are tested when they are crossing bridges, and ends with R’ Yannai’s advice to check the boat before going in rather than rely on contradictory ideas from Rav and Shmuel to not have or have a gentile in your boat. Maybe someone can explain better how these different ways of dealing with risk relate to each other

Dear RBZS,

I apologize for not replying sooner. Your posts do not show right away. [I don’t know if it is the site. Or my use of it. Either way it is weird.] I say your last post before yom tov. But I only say the other two today.

The Chassam Sofer is taking about a tzaddik that the people rely on. It specifically refers to a known leader that people are welcomed to partake of the tzadik’s assistance. See there for a discussion about Nadav and Avihu’s lack of involvement with the common people. There is no mention of the term korbonos. And it has no bearing on the passing of young people who were anonymous to us.

Your newer source is interesting, thanks for sharing it. Note how it compares the passing of the tzadik to yom kippur, not korbonos. I would like to read the whole piece, as it leaves me very puzzled. What lis lifting the Jews up to that level?

Today’s Daf Hayomi:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת יומא דף מב/א
וההוא יומא נח נפשיה דרביא בר קיסי ואנחו בה סימנא רביא [בר] קיסי מכפר כשעיר המשתלח
That day Ravya the son of Kisi died and they declared it as a sign: Ravya bar Kisi brings forgiveness like the sa’ir of Yom Kippur which is sent away.

Dear RZBS,

Exactly!