being Niftar Al Kiddush Hashem

Joseph,

Thank you for pointing out your response. I don’t think it was “up” for viewing when I wrote mine.

He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.

I understand this point in theory, but isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time? Or to assert with certitude what was in the Divine calculus when a gadol was murdered? It doesn’t sit right with me. And furthermore, such thoughts can CV”S lead to callousness. When Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel was murdered al kiddush Hashem before the eyes of Rabbi Yishmael the Kohen Gadol (which was actually Rabbi Shimon’s wish, because he did not want to witness the murder of the Kohen Gadol), did Rabbi Yishmael exclaim what a marvelous zechus it was that Rabbi Shimon received, or did he weep?

Avram,

Thank you for pointing out your response. I don’t think it was “up” for viewing when I wrote mine.

It wasn’t; I just wanted to reference your comment to my earlier addressing it.

I understand this point in theory, but isn’t it presumptuous for a human being to say whether another man died at his proper time?

The commenter didn’t implicate whether it was or wasn’t his proper time to die. All he indicated was that he was zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.

Or to assert with certitude what was in the Divine calculus when a gadol was murdered?

Everything that happens is a result of the Divine calculus. This assertion is no different than asserting Rabi Akiva (or any Jew murdered for being a Jew) died al kiddush Hashem.

…did Rabbi Yishmael exclaim what a marvelous zechus it was that Rabbi Shimon received, or did he weep?

Rabi Akiva exclaimed, before he was killed, what a zechus it was for him to die al kiddush Hashem. There’s no difficulty pointing out that someone died al kiddush Hashem or that it is a zchus to leave this world that way.

I don’t understand how dying al kiddush Hashem can be separated from dying.

Everybody dies. Some people have a special z’chus to die al kiddush Hashem. It’s not a matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying; it’s s matter of separating dying al kiddush Hashem from dying shelo al kiddush Hashem.

Also, I can understand the tefilla that, if/when it is my time, let it be meaningful, but that is different from coming in ex post facto and saying with authority what happened with someone and why.

Agreed; it’s a theory, not a certitude. I’m not saying I think that’s what happened, I just don’t think what he said deserved the response it got.

What made you think it was haughty?

Can you be more specific?

but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was

Should have been written something like this..Although it probably never should have been written at all

The Chofetz Chaim’s primary talmid Rav Elchanon Wasserman was R’L killed by the Nazis YMSH. HYD

its a strong language

He purposely used harsher language to make his point

Also its the poster themself. If I had written a similar post you would have gotten a different feeling, If a certain nameless trollish poster had posted it you would have gotten another feeling

Avram, he indicated that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefilos led kiddush Hashem to be the cause of his death; he didn’t indicate that the CC tefilos (or anything else) resulted in his dying any earlier than he would have otherwise died.

Is being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel the only way to die al kiddush Hashem? What about having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death, as opposed to R”L passing suddenly and unexpectedly?

Being brutally murdered by sonei Yisroel is far more preferable than having the opportunity to say vidui and Shema and demonstrate faith and trust in Hashem even under the shadow of death.

When a new is killed by a Muslim in Israel R”L he is murdered because he is Jewish and muslims believe that they have a commandment to kill jews. Now is that not called a yid who was niftar al kiddush Hashem?

6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust R”L by the Nazi’s because they were Jews. And not because they wanted their homes or some other reason. Each precious yid murdered al kiddish Hashem

Please post a source for this concept that someone who was

killed because he was a Jew was niftar al Kiddush Hashem (and please read the 5th perek of Rambam’s Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah first.)

DaasYochid,

Question: Are we being selfish when we bentch someone that he should live ad meah v’esrim? Should we rather wish for him that he [R”L] be killed by terrorists for being Jewish?

Nobody claimed that someone did or should daven for someone to die.

No nobody did, however, the assertion was made that R’ Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem in his 60s because of the tefillos of the Chofetz Chaim. This is the Chofetz Chaim’s beloved talmid we are talking about, and surely the Chofetz Chaim davened for him to live a long life of Torah and sweet goodness, as follows from your answer to my question. If someone approached me and said that someone beloved to me was murdered by terrorists because of my tefillos for myself, I would be hurt tremendously, even though I know dying al kiddush Hashem is a tremendous zechus for the neshama. That’s why nobody in their right mind would ever say something like that to somebody. Do we not owe the holy Chofetz Chaim at least that same regard (even though he has passed away)??

Joseph,

From the beginning I think you have perceived the objection to mik5’s statement as being due to the concept of dying al kiddush Hashem vis a vis R’ Elchonon, and that assumption has largely driven the subsequent discussion. That’s not it for me. My objection is based on regard for the honor of the Chofetz Chaim, and asserting that we know the “mind” of Hashem.

I’m not sure why you can’t see the distinction between causing his death and causing that he be a vehicle for kiddush Hashem.

DaasYochid: http://www.aish.com/ho/i/48955481.html

I didn’t say “someone who was killed in the Holocaust,”

I said “someone who was killed because he was a Jew.”

(It’s always good to hear from Rabbi Lopiansky, though.)

Comlink-X:

I think conceptually, we can see a path to an approach for other situations.

This question has been discussed here before.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dying-al-kiddush-hashem

Today is the yahrzeit of the famous Ger Tzedek, Avrohom ben Avrohom, hy”d.

When Rav Avrohom was taken to be burned al kiddush Hashem for converting to Judaism, he requested from those who came to kill him that they honor his one last request as has been customary throughout the ages before killing someone.

They agreed. He asked to be taken to the Vilna Gaon. They brought him to the Gaon and he asked the Gaon the following question: “We know the rule of ‘Zerizim makdimim l’mitzvos – One should perform mitzvos with alacrity.’ According to that dictum I should be running to fulfill this mitzvah of dying al kiddush Hashem. On the other hand, the quicker I run, the quicker I will hasten my death and one must not hasten one’s death. What should I do? Run quickly or not?”

The Gaon wanted to answer his question but before he had a chance the soldiers hustled Rav Avrohom away. The Gaon rushed to the window and shouted after him, “Reb Avrohom, quicker!” Rav Avrohom began to walk quickly…

The Story about the Famous Ger Tzedek that Caused Rav Chaim Kanievsky to Burst into Tears

Killed for being a Jew is Kiddush Hashem. It says in Tzetil Katan 2 that in Krias Shma we should have in mind that a fire is burning, forced to convert and we throw ourselves in there for the name of Hashem rather than convert.

But dying Al Kiddush Hashem is the biggest form of Kiddush Hashem that we can attain and hope for.

Dying Al Kiddush Hashem is better than living Al Kiddush Hashem?

Joseph, Rav Chaim Brisker said the opposite. However, if you are really interested maybe you can join an elite IDF unit and volunteer for the most dangerous missions.

It’s a bigger Kiddush Hashem to die Al Kiddush Hashem. It’s something every Jews should hope for.

I’ve never come across that principle in my humble studies.

Suppose you’re davening from your phone, and the lithium battery explodes and kills you, cv”s. Would that be dying Al Kiddush Hashem? If so, that’s an argument in favor of smartphones. I never heard of a conventional bound siddur exploding.