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How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist?
Saving someone from a fire or any other way (drowning)
Perhaps you can first show me a source that someone who was killed
by a terrorist was niftar al Kiddush haShem. (There’s probably a
thread – or 10 – about that already, so feel free to just link.)
MA,
If your comment was in reference to me you didn’t understand my answer
The jew’s home isn’t on fire, someone else was and the Jew was going to save that person (because the Jew is a upstanding human being that wants to save people)
You don’t have to be a victim in order to die al kiddush Hashem, just like someone can live al kiddush Hashem they can die al kiddush Hashem (am I being clear?) I happen to think so
How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist? LIVING AS A PROPER JEW
We are a religion of life, not death. Being Niftar Al Kiddush HaShem is not a goal or a dream or something we should find ways to do. There is only one way for it to happen. And if HKBH decides that that is the way for one of us to go, we should be Mekabel it B’Ahavah. But there is no “test” to figure out ways to do it.
Oish..
Here we have our collective Mashiach (oopps, I meant Mashgiach) always close at hand to gauge, measure, examine, analyze our connection status, at all times, to HaShem. Thanks for the test. Now I know where I failed…
Jewish Source: I believe you’re most definitely correct. Living like a Jew ought to be like is a much harder, longer Nisayon. Billam was not able to – he was only able to request dying like a just person – ???? ???? ??? ?????. We Jew have a higher calling – to live like a Jew. To effect a Kiddush HaShem even at rest, leisure. ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???. That’s something more sublime!!
“We we all be returned to this madreiga of mesiras nefesh for Hashem that we are supposed to be on”
Mesiras nefesh and dying al kiddush Hashem are completely different things
LF Thanks
The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.
Rebbe Akiva said: “Every day I say [in Shema] love G-d with your all soul and when will I be zoche to fulfill this [myself]? So we see that Rebbe Akiva also yearned to die al kiddush Hashem.
Unfortunately I have seen with my own eyes [woe to the eyes that see this!] religious Jews with yarmulkes and even a beard transgressing a halacha that, according to the Chazon Ish and the Steipler and possibly also others, one should die for it and not transgress. And that is the halacha of not shaking hands with the opposite gender.
“The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.”
This might be the most disturbing and disgusting thing I have seen all day. Wow.
Sam, he’s correct that Rabi Akiva long davened that he should be zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.
The chofetz chaim is not the same as Rabbi AKiva
Sam – i agree completely. i was surprised to see it got thru
ZD: If Rabi Akiva davened for it, why should it be any less if the Chofetz Chaim davened for it or that it is considered a very desirable way for any Jew to leave this world.
I was taught already when I was a small child in Yeshiva that this is the best way to leave the world that we can hope for and it entails a guaranteed spot in gan eden.
RTOTY award?
i dont think that was the problem…but i will let him speak for himself should he so chose
The chofetz chaim is not the same as Rabbi AKiva zahavasdad:- Please let me refer you to an exceedingly famous Mishna in tractate Rosh haShono:- Yiftach beDoro kiShemuel beDoro.
Joseph: R’ Akiva was hoping that when the opportunity came, he would be able to fulfill this Mitzvah. Also, the Gemara doesn’t say he Davened for it, just that he hoped for it to come. We don’t Daven for death. We hope than when it comes, HKBH gives us the opportunity for it to be as meaningful as possible, it whatever way that is. And it is certainly disgusting to say that someone died because of the Chafetz Chaim’s Tefillos.
Sam, who says davening to die al pi kiddush Hashem means davening to die? Perhaps it means davening that when he dies, at the time already determined, it should be al kiddush Hashem.
Sam2:
R’ Akiva was hoping that when the opportunity came, he would be able to fulfill this Mitzvah.
I think it was more than that… If I remember correctly, it was “all my life I have been pained by this passuk; when will I be able to fulfill it?”
Also, the Gemara doesn’t say he Davened for it, just that he hoped for it to come. We don’t Daven for death… And it is certainly disgusting to say that someone died because of the Chafetz Chaim’s Tefillos.
True, R’ Akiva did not daven for death, and I’m pretty sure the Chofetz Chaim didn’t either. But as DY pointed out, it could very well be that the CC davened that he would die al Kiddush Hashem when it was his time to go.
I think mik5 phrased his statement in an unclear manner. I understood his intent as DY explained.
I don’t think anyone needs to call his statement “disgusting” without seeking clarification first. In this case it’s not very difficult to Dan l’kaf zchus
Note also mk5 never even implied that the Chofetz Chaim davened for anything regarding R Elchonon.
i would agree with you in theory, but the impact of that type of statement in the way that it was phrased deserves that response. If it was mistated, there is the option to restate. and he has not indicated in any way that it was not what he meant so the response does, and should remain unless that happens.
SL: Would you also not provide the benefit of the doubt if the poster was ZD?
Rav Chaim Brisker said that it is preferable, and much more difficult, to live for kidddush Hashem.
so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.
and you seem to have missed the fact that there was no judgement involved. Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe. the comment was called disgusting because you dont leave things like that open for others to accept. i agreed. nothing was said about the poster, about his political or religious intentions with the post or anything else. Being Dan L’zchus isnt even relevant in this situation.
so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.
Isn’t this comment, in of itself, picking on posters instead of posts?
When a statement that a Jew made is publicly labeled as disgusting, although nothing was directly said about the persons character, I believe the chiyuv to at least ask for further explanation before such an embarrassing public judgement is made, is at least called for by menchlikeit, even if not invoking the chiyuv of being Dan l’chaf zchus (which I believe IS applicable here).
Anyway that’s the way of public forums, and this one is unfortunately not an exception, to quickly and harshly pass judgement and not retract said judgement when an opposing reasonable explanation is proposed.
Something about the psychological nature of these forums. I personally don’t claim exemption from such poor behavior.
no, it was a direct response to an accusation
feivel – i take issue with your comment on many levels. if i believed the comment was in any way reflective of the person then i would have agreed differently. and if he said that it wasnt what he meant then i would have said i misunderstood and i retract it. you are making alot of accusations here that i supposedly did things that never even occurred to me, and i dont even know where you are coming from.
That statement by mik5 did initially cause a harsh reaction in my gut, until I read it more carefully and gave it some consideration.
Anyway it’s none of my business anymore.
SL, it is yourself who has a distinction of certain ideologies whose posters you individually defend and others you don’t.
mik’s comment was “The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.”
He didn’t say anyone davened to die per se. He said davened that when he dies it should be al kiddush Hashem. That’s exactly the same sentiment as Rabi Akiva. And just as Rabi Akiva died al kiddush Hashem, mik pointed out that Reb Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem.
None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed was actually stated.
SL:
it was a direct response to an accusation
I don’t see how that justifies “picking on posters instead of posts”. If somebody accuses you of something, does that allow you to attack him personally?
And btw, what exactly did Joseph “accuse” you of?
it remains your business for as long as you take it upon yourself to musser those who speak out and your words exist for viewing.
I read it that way and it gave me a bad feeling in my gut so i reread it and saw nothing different (i still dont see any change. people are merely explaining away the first half of the statement, not the second) I didnt bother agreeing until i saw that someone else felt the same way. he hasnt said a word about having been read wrong.
“None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed…”
can you list them for me?
I’m sorry Syag
I regret entering the conversation here, and don’t wish to get further entangled.
Maybe you’re right. I’m not sure
SL, you wrote “Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe.” Yet mik nowhere suggested anything of that sort. He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.
Btw. I was only “giving mussar” to the one who made that statement.
My comments were directed only to him or in response to your defense of him.
I have to agree with Sam2 and Syag Lchochma here. The disturbing part of mik5’s first post was not his comments about what Rabbi Akiva and the Chofetz Chaim davened for themselves, but rather his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death.
Avram, see my last comment (prior to this one) where I address the point about Reb Elchonon.
Avram in MD,
his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death
Why do you need to read it that way? Why not read it that his tefillos resulted in the z’chus, but that he died exactly when he was anyhow supposed to?
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