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Inspired by the “Being in Kollel” threads….
Do the people who sit in a Kollel institution, but everyone knows they don’t belong (for example, they are there only until the Shver’s money runs out, or they put in fewer hours than a working Ba’al HaBos, are on an Arzei/Maalot Dafna or Lakewood honeymoon with vacations every month, etc.) ruin it for the real learners? Is it better that they stay because of the smallish amount of learning that they actually do (even if it is four/five hours a day), or are they impinging on Kavod HaTorah and giving Kollel institutions and the real learners that attend them a bad name, and should leave ASAP? Should there be a separate institution for these people?
Related:
Why is the shver’s money running out an illustration that he’s not serious? Most kollel men leave to go to work when financial needs dictate.
Interesting how you linked to feivel’s post, which brings up a point which hasn’t been brought up yet but should be: not call kollel men are cut from the same cloth. When discussing these issues, it needs to be clear about whom we are talking – the less serious, short term learners, or more serious l, longer term learners. Those two factors are heavily correlated, especially inasmuch as it’s not the norm (though it exists) that someone who is not being productive sticks it out for many years.
Hence, feivel describes wonderfully dedicated kollel men with large families, which means they’re long term learners.
The less serious, dedicated ones don’t usually stay until they have large families.
The system has been set up that boys end up in kollel if they want to get a good shidduch, regardless of their desire to sit and learn. I am sure there are others who have seen guys who really don’t come across as big learners but it’s kind of what is expected, and for those who choose a different path, they are looked down upon by girls who have been brainwashed in seminary that somehow they need to marry a guy who is learning.
The system has been set up that boys end up in kollel if they want to get a good shidduch
Define “good shidduch”.
If one has never worked in one’s life and then suddenly has to get a job, the transition is much more difficult than you think and there arent many jobs you are really qualified for especially ones that pay enough money to support a large family
DY – Aderaba, Feivel (as you put it) is exactly my point.
Aderaba, feivel is describing b’nei Torah, your thread is about non b’nei Torah.
Good shidduch–meaning a wealthy family that will support him in a nice lifestyle (hence no need to work) and/or yichus
So you’re saying that the system was designed so that lazy boys can get married?
I don’t think it was designed that way, but it sure slipped into that for some. Have you not heard of the wives whose kollel husbands rise late, miss minyan, etc., etc.? There appears to be no accountability in kollel, unless I am misinformed, where they are given regular bechinos on what they learn and required to share their learning
I’ve heard of it, but most of those guys aren’t in kollel for very long.
I agree that that is a casualty of our success.
As far as accountability, it depends on the kollel. Any decently paying kollel has some accountability – not necessarily what you suggest, but the rosh kollel knows who is being productive and who isn’t, and the ones who aren’t don’t last very long.
Percentage wise, how many you think have any standards of accountability? I haven’t heard of anyone being asked to leave kollel. Based on the shidduch scene, it seems boys want support for 5-10 years and I would assume that is the average stay
Just FYI, from my own block alone and around the corner, there are sons on law who are already in kollel more than 5 years, a couple more than 10
I haven’t heard of anyone being asked to leave kollel.
I have. I’m talking about well paying kollelim, not BMG.
Just FYI, from my own block alone and around the corner, there are sons on law who are already in kollel more than 5 years, a couple more than 10
How many, out of how many married kids? More importantly, are they for the most part b’nei Torah or fakers?
P.S. Ittisa reads the imamother threads, and from what she tells me, 2k a month for 5 years is considered normal even for below average guys who aleady plan on leaving after that time.
Tell her not to believe everything she reads on the internet.
A person who takes money to learn and goofs off is just as much a robber as an employee who goofs off.
A person who takes money to learn and goofs off is just as much a robber as an employee who goofs off.
Pay checks are for working, so if he goofs off, he’s a gazlan.
Kollel checks are s’char battalah, so it’s not gezeilah to goof off – he’s batteling!
Gavra’s right though that it’s bad for everyone else. It’s obviously wrong either way, but probably not technically gezel.
DY, about half the sons in laws are sitting and learning but do not convey they are serious learners just in the way they behave. Maybe they are, but they don’t come across that way. I wouldn’t say they are fakers. They may go every day for several hours, I just dont get the feeling this is their first choice of how to spend their time
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