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There have been countless letters to the editor on the subject of austentaious simchas and how people should stick to the takanos etc. Well for all you ‘bleeding hearts’ out there who are genuinely concerned that your next door neighbour might go into to debt just to be able to ‘keep up with the Joneses’, Kol hakovod to you!(although I think you guys make up a tiny minority)
However, there are many who EVEN criticize those who can INDEED afford it. Thats my question,is this a concern because you feel a rich man should pose as an example, or does this stem from plain jeolousy?? Should we not perhaps try to educate our kids to fargin in the first place instead of turning this around and imposing on others to keep a low profile because the fact is, you probably wont change anything;
Is jealousy something we can work on, or is it engrained in our charchter?
An inspirational story that happened not long ago:
There was a 17 year old girl who got into an accident which left her in a coma till she was 90 years old. Because she lived in a town without a Jewish Kehila, she was buried in a Non Jewish cemetary.
Just recently, a family member arranged that her remains should be transferd to Eretz Yisroel. When they excavated the corpse they were stunned to see that her body remained in tact! We all know that besides for Tzaddikim, bodies decompose.
The issue was brought to the attention of a famous Gadol(I think it was Rav Chaim Kanievsky, but I’m not sure) and he confirmed that since this woman was 12 years old, SHE WAS NEVER JEALOUS OF ANYONE!
Please share your thoughts,,,,,
Farginning / jealousy is a nature.
But of course, everything can be worked on. That’s why we came here on this world..
the story is really inspiring…but was she 12 or 17? And yes we can probably all work on our jealousy issues.
nameless, you make some very nice sentimental value judgments that sounds very correct. But the takanos were made by the Rabbonim, who certainly you will concede are far wiser than you. So how do you bring yourself to question the wisdom of the Gedolim who established the takanos?
I think it is quite clear that the sole purpose of the takana was to make an excuse for those who want one. No one else seems to have listened.
I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.
Josephf said:
…the takanos were made by the Rabbonim, who certainly you will concede are far wiser than you. So how do you bring yourself to question the wisdom of the Gedolim who established the takanos?…
Reb Yosef, At the risk of taking this thread off on a tangent I have to take issue with the basic point here. Yes…you are right, the takanos were made by the gedolim (actually drafted by baalei batim and signed by gedolim). Yes…the gedolim are far wiser than me.
So how can I question the takanos, you ask?
Simple.
Have you noticed that almost every single Rav who signed the takanos was a Rosh yeshivah rather than a communal Rav? Are you aware that many communal rabbonim were approached to sign on and flat out refused?
Have you wondered why?
I’ll tell you why. because it is not a simple matter. And like so many issued in our community today there can be more than one approach that has a basis in Daas Torah. The simple truth is that if prominent gedolim can disagree so diametrically about an issue, then questioning one side is not questioning the wisdom of the gedolim, it is simplty expressing that your intuition aligns with other gedolim.
This aplies to ALMOST evgery issue debated on this blog.
There was a 17 year old girl who got into an accident which left her in a coma till she was 90 years old.
Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. The longest coma on record has been for 37 years. This sounds like a Jewish Urban Legend. Can you provide any more details to corroborate the story?
The Wolf
Reliable enough???
Not for me. Not everything said by a rebbetzin (even if she’s the daughter of a rav covered in a book) is true.
As I stated above, the longest known medical coma is 37 years. Now, you’re telling me of a coma that lasted 73 years, more than double the length of the known record. I would think that if someone was in a coma that long, it would certainly have been written up in medical literature. There would certainly be records available to corroborate the story. Can you provide any? A name, a place, dates? Anything?
Until then, I’m calling the story an Urban Legend.
The Wolf
Wolf,
Lets ask of you, what you asked of others. What is YOUR source as to what is the longest known coma in medical history, as you claimed above?
If the Almighty decides that he wants someone to be in a coma for over 70 years, thats exactly whats gona happen
That’s right. And if He decides that a huge sea squid is going to swallow downtown Johannesburg, then it will happen to. But that doesn’t mean that it *did*.
The same applies to your coma story. Sure it can happen – but that doesn’t mean it did. I’m still calling it an Urban Legend.
The Wolf
nameless,
And again, I’m not denying that God has the power to make it happen… I’m denying that it actually happened. Can you see the difference?
Jospeh,
My primary source is the Guinness Book of World Records. Elaine Esposito, of Tarpon Springs, FL, went into a coma on Aug 6, 1941 and never stirred again. She died on November 25, 1978 — over 37 years later. If you google “Elaine Esposito coma” you will come up with numerous sources.
Other than a “it once happened…” nameless has not provided a name, place or date for his story. Usually that’s the hallmark of an Urban Legend.
The Wolf
Dear nameless,
Do you know the difference between past tense and future tens? You should see the article entitled “Get Education”
“So YOUR still calling it an Urban Legend while a reputable Rebetzin confirms it!
Sorry pal, I think i’ll go along with Rabbi Herman’s grandaughter!”
What do you want from him. Sam Berger’s demonstrated time and again that he doesn’t believe in anything the gedolim or reputable people say. Of all of our “pro-freikeit” posters on these boards, I’d put him at the top of the list.
mosherose, is that the name of the same person who made the comment here?
I agree with Wolf. A simple internet search does not return ANYTHING about a so-called 73 year coma. Such an amazing medical event would certainly have been well-publicized if it were true. The Rebbetzin either heard wrong or her story was recorded wrong.
Cantoresque says;
I don’t believe the story and want to see proof.
Nothing personal, but I’ve read a lot of your comments and sad to say, there are alot of things ‘you dont believe’ and I’m sorry for you.
But for the record, I heard this story at a shiur recently given by a Rebetzin who happens to be the granddaughter of Reb YY Herman, the subject of the book ‘All for the Boss’,,,,,
Reliable enough???
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Not reliable enough. If this sroty actualy happened, it should not be too difficult to verify. what was the girl’s name, where did she live? Where is she buried etc. After all if she were in a coma for that long people, beyond her parents, took care of her. Who were they? Some detail, that ought to be readily available, should be forthcoming. And I’m sorry, the fact that a rebbetzin parroted it back is dispositive of nothing.
<i>Have you ever attended an evening where a famous speaker adressed the public?
MOST of the time you will not hear him telling a story while including the ‘name, rank and seriel number’ of the subjects involved. That doesnt mean the story aint true!</i>
Correct… but that doesn’t mean that it is true either. Don’t you think it’s within the realm of possibility that the story teller was either mistaken or embellishing a story to make a point?
As for non-decaying bodies, I would believe it over the story of a 73 year coma for two reasons:
1. Bodies that don’t decay *do* sometimes happen.
2. The amount of evidence left behind by an undecayed body that was quickly reburied would be very small. The amount of evidence left behind by a 73 year coma patient would be great. A great deal of medical record-keeping and literature would have been generated by such a case. And yet, not one shred of evidence has turned up.
‘ONCE a NON BELIEVER, Always a NON BELIEVER’!
What is that meant to imply? Are you implying that because I don’t believe a girl was in a coma for 73 years that I don’t believe anything? Please tell me what you meant by that statement.
The Wolf
cantersque:
It IS hard to believe she was in a coma for 73 years, but that is besides the point. Even if she were in a coma for 37 years, (its possible someone misunderstood over here) that was not the point of the story. The point was that her lack of jealousy saved her from decomposing. Don’t pick one detail of the story that sounds exagerated (it may or may not be) to invalidate the story. The idea that a reighteous person does not decompose is not a new one, there are lots of reliable stories with that theme. (if you want verification of this concept, you can probably find it easily enough, though not of this particular story, by asking the Chevra Kadisha in Eetz Yisroel, or authors like Pesach Krohn who reputedly research their stories)
But it takes a gadol of the caliber of R’ Kanievsky to posit a reason why a person merited this zechus.
Cantoresque,
Have you ever attended an evening where a famous speaker adressed the public?
MOST of the time you will not hear him telling a story while including the ‘name, rank and seriel number’ of the subjects involved. That doesnt mean the story aint true!
Furthermore, if Rebetzin Miller mentioned that name of Hagoan Rav Chaim KANIEVSKY IN CONNECTION TO THIS STORY, you can be sure it happened. But then again, ‘ONCE a NON BELIEVER, Always a NON BELIEVER’!
Posted 3 hours ago #
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Nameless
I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there. Moreover, recent events well indicate the (il)legitimacy of taking things at face value simply because they are said in the name of a gadol. Moreover, I’m not an unbeliever, rather I choose to think before believing.
WolfishMusings,
I find it amazing that you believe so strongly in your “primary source”. A Rebetzin gave this story by a shiur and yet you still stick to only believing the facts which Google/the Guinness Book of World Records writes of….interesting.
nameless (and Joseph!),
I totally agree with your comments on this one!
oy, I could express myself differently but oy! is enough! allow one of the “pro’freikeit” people on this website to comment….this whole story is a fairy tale and , regardless whether a rebbetzin told the tale or that she mentioned Rav Kanievsky’s name (who did not comment upon the lenght of the coma,btw), it is a story for the gullible. Hakodush boruch hu does not make miracles to please “nameless”. And, just because a few of us don’t believe in fairy tales does not make us “kofrim” (I am anticpating a comment by Joseph).BTW, I DO believe in jeshuos from rebbes!
choni hamgol slept 70 years (tanis 23),is it mentioned in guinness book of world records? If not we shouldnt believe it?.Rip van vinkle we definately dont believe, but pretty sure its derived from this story in tanis. some say the author of “frankestein”,, the idea came from the golem that the MEHAREL MIPRAG created…by the way wolfmusing does the guinness book mention the “golem? on the other hand,maybe you means since it was resently we shoul’ve heard about it
. on the other hand the use of the term “urban jewish legends ” that wolf uses…trying to comprehend what you mean, so the tanis gemmrah included?
p.s. to my post pg 2. some complain, in other articles, that we bring our “proofs” to “points” we make from the “talmud”…(their comments are in sarcasam {hyphens are in their postings , )..since we’re not aqauinted with new test…, koran and its interpetations,shakespheare,henry wadsfel longfellow,etc so we’re “stuck” c’vs and have to bring our “points” from talmud etc.
Let me make this clear. I don’t believe there was a girl, relevant to this conversation, in a coma for 73 or 37 years or any length of time. I don’t believe there was a girl, relevant to this conversation, whose body did not decompose after she died (in fact I have a ahrd time believing the entire decomposition thing. And BTW, they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose so go figure). And finally, until I see it on his letterhead with a verified signiture, or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense. GROW UP PEOPLE!!! the time for fairy tales ended with kindergaarten.
rabbiofberlin:
“Hakodush boruch hu does not make miracles to please “nameless”. ” Are you for real??
HKB”H has His own reasons for making miracles which neither you or I are privy to! But in this case, even if you don’t want to believe the story, it’s pretty rediculous to say Hashem doesn’t make miracles to please nameless. Nameless was merely repeating a story she HEARD, for goodness sakes!
Also, can you explain to me how you resolve this contradiction in your personality: if I believe this “tale” told over by a chashuva women in the name of the Gadol Hador, I am “gullible”, But, you “DO believe in jeshuos from rebbes!” Isn’t that slightly two-faced?
No, that’s not what I’m saying… and I’ll thank you not to put words into my mouth.
I believe that bodies don’t decay on occasion for both reasons. Just like I believe the sun will rise in the morning because Chazal tell us this and because I can see it with my own eyes.
And you still haven’t addressed my point. A person in a coma for 73 years in the modern era would have left behind an enormous amount of evidence. The fact that there is no such evidence is a fairly strong indication that it didn’t happen.
(And the comparisons to Choni HaMa’agol are invalid in any event… Choni’s 70 year sleep would not have left behind any evidence that we can find today, so I would not rule it out on the basis of there being no evidence. A modern-day coma, on the other hand, *can* be ruled out based on the lack of evidence).
The Wolf
YOU ARE A KOIFER, my friend!
So, if someone doesn’t believe that a girl sat in a coma for 73 years that makes her a kofer? Gee, I wasn’t aware that that was one of the ikkarei emunah.
The Wolf
to nameless..cantor esg and his friends will faster believe that santa claus will fill his stockings down the chimeny than belive in these “myth bearing , revisionist” stories(his language .if want reference will post) . see sefer “sipirei chassidim” from harav zeven on the posik “vlo cohaso eino vlo nos leicho” , he brings mayses of tzaddikim the they had to be transported and they were as fresh as the day they died, mir can bring what we read recently in one of the artstrolll a similar story but too long. may nexrt post e’yiha..as matter of fact af friend of mine mentioned similar story on the holy igros moishe..next post..” remeber this poster is against chreidi belives ..see his posting may 3 article “charedi weeklies”
the problem with these anti “myth bearing ,revisionts rabbis” etc.(his term not mine)is not that they dont belive this stoy but the dont belive this whole concept plus others ….se our post regarding this issue (if mderator will post..
to nameless, I have been posting for a while on this website and I have never called anyone anything. I have more respect for people. Calling me a “koifer” is infantile because it is just an insult, based on nothing you can point to.It borders on motzi shem rah. I will ask you to retract this. I am moichel you in advance but you have to stop calling me something that you do not have a scintilla of evidence for.
As to the substance of the matter, I called the story of the woman in a coma for 70 years a “fairy tale”. So what? Did Rav Kanievsky coem out sand say that this is a fact? All he said was that her non-decomposed body was due to the fact that she had no jealousy. The fact that the body did not decompose is either the truth or not. As they say ” neisei sefer venechze”. If there are witnesses that the body did not decompose, then so be it. All that Rav Kanievsky said was that this was due to the fact that she had no jealousy.
As far as miracles for you or anyone else, it is absolutely a fact that real miracles are not made to measure by Hakodesh Boruch Huh. If you merit a real miracle, then you saure a better person than anyone else in this world.
It is symptomatic of anyone that has no real answer to insult the questioner. I suggest you treat everyone with more respect.
To Think Big,
I absolutely believe in “jeshuos” by rebbes and, may I add, by other righteous men like Roshei yeshiva. There are many. many stories, OF TODAY, that people were helped. This does not mean that miracles occur on a daily basis, certainly not “nissim geluim”. BUT, if someone gets cured from an illness or has a financial success afteer he asks for it from a rebbe, then I ,personally , believe that the tefillos have helped.
And, yes, I also believe in Eretz Yisreol being a “nes benistar”. SO, I may have a split personality but I recognize what der eibershter shows me and here, he has shown that jeshuos help and that Eretz Yisroel is a berocho to all Klal Yisroel.
to Rabbiof berlin:
again, you seem to have a short memory recall. you write:
to nameless, I have been posting for a while on this website and I have never called anyone anything. I have more respect for people.
see my comment on “why yidden are best” where i quote you degrading a whole sector of the Jewish world. Perhaps you should take a more honest look at yourself.
Secondly, as you responded to Nameless, “All he said was that her non-decomposed body was due to the fact that she had no jealousy. The fact that the body did not decompose is either the truth or not. As they say ” neisei sefer venechze”. If there are witnesses that the body did not decompose, then so be it. All that Rav Kanievsky said was that this was due to the fact that she had no jealousy.”
So now you’re trying to say that Rav Kanievski, shlita, gadol Hador made a conclusion about the REASON why the body did not compose but did not necessarily believe the story happened? Excuse me, but did i miss something over here???
also, care to explain this line which i also just dont get? (excuse my feeble mind): “As far as miracles for you or anyone else, it is absolutely a fact that real miracles are not made to measure by Hakodesh Boruch Huh.”
As to your last comment about yeshuos from rebbes do you mean to say that you do not believe in any story that seems “miraculous” unless there was a rebbe or Tzaddik involved in it? For exemple, if someone you know was saved from a terrible accident, and the doctors said they can’t believe anyone survived- it must be miraculous—you wouldn’t believe that it was a miracle, just because a rebbe didnt forsee it? Isn’t your definition a bit narrow?
Cantoresque says;
‘I’ve been to many such events. Bu my attendance creates no obligation to believe everything said there.’
Are you implying that these reputable prominate speakers who have the support of our Gedolim are BLATANT LIARS?? Because frankly, there is no middle way. Its either you believe them, or you think they are trying to deceive us,
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Quite the contrary. I imply to intent at deception at all. I’m certain the rebbetzin who repeaed this fairy tale firmly believes it. But her belief in it does not make it true.
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You continue by saying;
, they say that Vlad the Impaler [the basis for the Dracula story] also didn’t decompose
Who is ‘THEY’ sir??
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The archeologists who found his grave in the church of an old monastary in Romania.
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But you take FIRST PRIZE for this;
or I witness him say from his own mouth I don’t believe R. Chaim Kanievsky chimed in on this nonsense
Frankly I dont know how your not embarrassed to even make such a statement on a Yeshiva Web site.To even suggest that a Gadol like Rav Kaniesvsky should even sink to the level of one who questions the credibility of any Talmid Chochom who quotes him, is outrageous!
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Please!!! Do you really eepxpect me to believe that geolim are never misquoted? Do you think for a second that I’ll accept the notion that gedolim are no misinformed by unscrupulous people? Don’t be ridiculous
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You apparantly are struggling with your beliefs and its obvious in all your posts!
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Halevai we should all struggle with our beliefs. Without the struggle that comes from true introspection, we would never grow.
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