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I’ve mentioned this in passing in a few of my other posts (perhaps some of you have picked it up?) but I wanted to bring it out in the open to get people’s take on it.
I’m a Yeshiva Bochur (of the “Black Hat” variety if you must label) and I’m also a cadet in Air Force ROTC. What this means is that I get military training while in school (and Yeshiva) and that I don’t have to commit just yet. I have asked shailos both hashkafically (my Rebbi) and halachically (A gadol) but I wanted to know if anybody else has had experience and/or thoughts on this. I’m looking for serious pros/cons, please don’t assume it’s impossible to be Frum unless you know 1st, 2nd or 3rd hand.
Thank you all.
What heter is there to putting ones life at risk (pekuach nefesh) in the service of a non-Jewish military?
I know of none.
I figured if anyone would rush to judgment, it would be Joseph.
I salute you! (Joseph, firstly I would imagine hakoras hatov to him, and to your country allows it. Secondly, he’s in the Air Force, not the Army or Marines. His pikuach nefesh would be hurting his nails on a nail clipper while cutting his nails sitting at his desk waiting for an orderly to bring him coffee. 🙂 )
joseph – is there a difference between that and a jewish military? i didn’t think so!
There is no heter unless you are drafted or if it is for Israel
yros – Even Israel is a non-Jewish Army.
Joseph: YEah But atleast your’e fighting for the holy land.
chaimss –
Please clarify. Does not the military have the right to reassign you in a time of conflict (i.e. another Iraq, G-d forbid) to a combat position should it deem it necessary? If so, Pikuach Nefesh is an issue. I believe (but perhaps am mistaken) that the U.S. Military can, at will, reassign Officers to combat positions.
I don’t quite understand your point about a ”Chaplain.” And yes, any way you cut it, the U.S. Military is a non-Jewish service, and it risks its soldiers lives based on values not (necessary) in conformance with the Torah.
yros – that is not the case. The Israeli Army is an immoral Un-Jewish service.
Joseph-
That was your most nasty, vile comment yet.
My brother who is a Rav in E”Y, gives gemorah shiurim on an air force base, kashers army base kitchens for Pesach, and once had a career officer court- martialed for bringing leben into a mess tent that according to army regulations was to be used exclusively for fleishig eating.
May HKB”H stengthen and protect this “non-Jewish” army!
I think the pikuach nefesh would be in the army itself. forget about the enemy. it could be very dangerous for a yeshiva bochur- as you say you are. is there a reason you chose the army instead of regular college?
Joseph, have you ever read the book Lt. Birnbaum? He asked R’ Hutner zt”l to get him out of teh army, and R’ Hutner said no, he SHOULD go into the army.
It’s not as clear cut as you think.
chaimss: You obviously don’t know Joseph. He always rushes to judgment.
Yank,
I hope your brother keeps away from the worst kind of shmutz that permeates within the zionist army. The absolute worst.
What heter is there to putting ones life at risk (pekuach nefesh) in the service of a non-Jewish military?
I know of none.
Joseph,
I’m curious… what is the statistical level of risk that is acceptable in pursuing one’s livelihood? What does the maximum fatality rate that is acceptable?
The Wolf
Feif Un,
wow! what on earth in joseph’s comment was rushing to judement? What was his verdict btw?
However, your comment….
Yanky55 – once they’re out there fighting yes, we need to pray for them. they’re our brothers. the same way we need to pray for female soldiers – even though it is COMPLETELY assur for a girl to join the army. but that doesn’t mean we agree with it.
i say – if it would stop the arabs from killing Jews – give them the whole land. a jewish life is much more important. (and yes i LOVE the land. i’m obsessed.)
intellegent, Thanks, you make good points of course. But pay Feif no heed when he acts like a troll.
Wolf, That is a good shaila.
I pasken that there is nothing wrong with it.
intellegent – joseph did pass judgement. He basically said that he knows of no heter to risk one’s life in the military and therefore one cannot join.
Instead, he should have said, ‘I wasn’t aware that there is a heter to join the military. Would you mind sharing the psak that you got with the oilem here so as to enlighten us’. To which I would reply, for your own sake please DO NOT.
“The Israeli Army is an immoral Un-Jewish service.”
I am guessing, Joseph, that you have not been in the Israeli army, so you really should just keep quiet.
Wolf, That is a good shaila.
Well, since it’s a good shaila, why don’t you ask it before condemning the OP? There are plenty of occupations that you wouldn’t blink an eye at that are more hazardous than being a non-combat soldier in an air force.
The Wolf
squeak, The OP of this thread solicited comments on the issue. (As an aside, where above did I state it is impermissable?)
isn’t the whole idea of fighting for the land not a jewish one? isaeli doesn’t mean jewish.
Wolf, you asked a different shaila than the OP.
Indeed. The zionist army is probably the MOST morally corrupt military in the Universe.
Indeed. The zionist army is probably the MOST morally corrupt military in the Universe.
Oh, please. Cut the hyperbole and do some reading on military coups in the last fifty years. If you object to the Israeli Army, fine — but stick to reality.
The Wolf
Wolf, you asked a different shaila than the OP.
That’s right… but you didn’t answer the OP’s question at all. You castigated him for possibly putting his life at risk. So, I asked you what the acceptable level of risk is. If you don’t know the answer, then don’t castigate the OP for it.
The Wolf
I agree, joseph, your comment was not out of place in a thread like this. All I said was that you passed judgement. As I already explained – when you ask “What is the heter” and then follow it with a “I know of none”, you are saying it is impermissable.
Feif Un
“chaimss: You obviously don’t know Joseph. He always rushes to judgment.”
What is your issue??? Do you two have something personally against e/o?
Squeak, “Instead, he should have said, ‘I wasn’t aware that there is a heter to join the military. Would you mind sharing the psak that you got with the oilem here so as to enlighten us’. To which I would reply, for your own sake please DO NOT. ” Oh please. Do you always use such language? I think not. If you would like an example, I can cut and paste but i don’t think that is necessary. I wonder how the coffee room would look if everyone would speak that way. It would probably look like this:
(that is: blank)
I hope i don’t sound like Joseph’s attorney. I have nothing with him. I just happen to get nervous from these supposedly self riteous comments and they both have to do with him. what can i do?
brooklyn19,
“Yanky55 – once they’re out there fighting yes, we need to pray for them. they’re our brothers. the same way we need to pray for female soldiers – even though it is COMPLETELY assur for a girl to join the army. but that doesn’t mean we agree with it.”
I know I’ve been making you crazy about your ego, (Hope you forgive me, but I don’t think you mind!) but I have to say, I like your point! Makes a lot of sense! Yitamu Chataim means that we don’t pray that a sinner should die but that his chataim should. So of course we daven for a soldier even if he doesn’t keep mitzvos but it doesn’t make their actions right. Just reiterating.
Wolf,
The OP solicited comments on the matter. There was no castigating.
Now why don’t you do your usual shtick, and go to your blog and make a post making fun of all the uncultured idiots of the Coffee Room, as you are wont to do.
Int: You attack me again without understanding my point. I didn’t say that I am not judgemental. I said that joseph was being judgemental, and then I contrasted his comment with a non-judgemental version of it. Do you understand now?
Joseph,
I have never made fun of the “uncultured idiots of the Coffee Room,” as you so derogatorily put it. Sometimes, however, I do find statements that are so outlandish (such as the ones about statistics not affecting yidden) that I do call attention to them (and, as originally presented, that post wasn’t even doing that — it was simply presenting my POV on the value of education). But attack people? Sorry, I don’t do that. Most of my posts that involve the YWN coffeeroom are to discuss (and offer my views) on subjects that come up here.
I don’t know why you have such venom towards me. You offered an opinion that it might be assur to serve in the military because of pikuach nefesh. I simply asked you to define that and to find out if you held that other occupations that have a higher mortality rate are also assur. That’s no reason to get upset with me.
The Wolf
Wow, all the girls are defending me…
The Wolf,
I think Joseph gets angry because you speak truth, and Joseph doesnt like that the truth doesnt fit in with his narrow form of Judaism.
stop fighting
Wolf,
How many quotes shall I provide you, of you calling the CR posters (in general and specifically) idiots, in so many words on your blog?
squeak,
I understand. But I think your quote was unrealistic. Normal people don’t speak that way. I think everyone should chill out about how everyone else speaks and worry more about themselves. I guess that is what i meant!
As I posted on a different thread, everyone should stop taking everyone else’s comments so seriously!
Joseph,
I don’t think that you’ll find that I ever called anyone an idiot. I have expressed that certain *ideas* are foolish. I have said that certain *attitudes* are even beyond comprehension. But I don’t attack people. And, in the event that you find that I have, then I ask mechila – because that wasn’t my intention. I attack ideas and words, not people.
The Wolf
Chaim,
Well, let’s look at the points you provided:
1. Every activity has a certain amount of risk involved. Even just getting up and walking across the street. I’m certain that there are civilian jobs that are more dangerous than those of a non-combat solider in the Air Force. Of course, you still have to do your hishtadlus to determine if you are, in fact, putting yourself at *unnecessary* risk.
2. I know next to zilch about military culture, so I can’t really address this point. All I can tell you is that there are frum chaplains in the military. Perhaps you should reach out to one of them and have a serious discussion on the matter.
The Wolf
Can everyone stop this silliness. Please don’t argue about petty things that people said on a stupid (okay, not stupid) website. PLEASE!
CHILDREN!! YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!
It seems like SOME people were waiting for a new topic, just to air out their grievances, petty kvetches and monumenally judgemental, unthinking comments.
At least respect the OP and STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND.
Open your own thread entitled, “I’m In A Bad Mood and Need To Rant About Anything,” with a Sinas Chinam subtitle.
Sheeesh!
I would think the CR became overrun with a bunch of bored high schoolers.
Pull yourselves together and stop attacking everyone in sight!
Ashreinu,
My apologies for upsetting you. I’ll attempt to stick to the topic at hand.
The Wolf
Sorry Ashreinu, this is not just a kvetch. At a time when Jewish boys are being moser nefesh – putting their lives in extreme danger – to protect us and defeat our enemies, there are posters here who make the most vile accusations against those heroes.
While chayalim are waiting at the Gaza border (including some close friends whose level of sincere devotion to the Torah is something I wish I could emulate) it’s disgusting to hear comments here (and in other threads) by people whose nicknames I can’t even bear to say now.
I used to think that “J” was just a clown who would defend any absurd action or statement, as long it was done by a chareidi. Now I realize that he is a vile enemy of Torah Judaism.
BS”D
Have you ever considered the Zimbabwean air force? You get paid billions, if not trillions, for serving in the Zimbabwean military…….
Chaimss – DO YOURSELF A FAVOR and consult intelligent, informed people on this topic. I know a handful of Frum Jews in different departments of the military (CR people – YES -they are Shomer Shabbos and Kashrus and their kids are in Yeshivos!). Contact your local Chaplain who has a much clearer picture of what you would like to discuss. NOONE here can understand where you are coming from (with the exception of a few individuals) and therefore sound emptyheaded, bigoted and judgmental.
B’hatzlacha in everything and please discuss this with a knowledgable person….
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