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I’ve noticed over the years an interesting correlation between people who as they become financially wealthier, they become less frum. Now I must stress that this is not a hard and fast rule. Certainly there are people who become wealthier and do not become less frum, and even some who might become frummer. But I’ve found a notable tendency among a lot of the “new monied” that they lose some of their frumkeit.
Now I know that the usual suspects here are going to jump all over me for saying all this. But think about it. Many times those who grew up in the lower financial class or the lower middle class and made it big financially or even did nicely after marriage, you’ll find them learning less Torah and shiurim than before and sending their children to fancier yeshivos that focus a bit less on Limudei Kodesh and more on secular studies than the parents grew up with and they’ll be eating Cholov Stam sometimes or always despite having grown up in a Cholov Yisroel only home or they’ll start going to or watching movies even though their parents never allowed that and they’ll be less careful with tznius for their wife and daughters than their parents were and many other similar inyanim.
I want to stress that they’re still frum; they keep Shabbos (though they might no longer wait for Rabbeinu Tam’s zman), kashrus (though they’ll be looser on hechsheirim) and taharas hamishpacha. But certainly a lot of the ehrlechkeit they once possessed they no longer have.
You forget to tell us which Rav Avigdor Miller tape this was from
If going off the derekh led to poverty, it would be very unpopular. Being frum means giving up a large percentage of your income – not just the seventh you lose by not working one day, but all the options you give up by following a non-standard schedule, giving up most mobility, having to pass on many types of jobs. For example, the two largest “merit” (not based on need) scholarship programs for higher education are athletic scholarships and the various ROTC programs – and it is virtually impossible for a Shomer Shabbos to go into either. One can only take jobs in cities with frum communities – and most of the country is not near a kosher grocery, a mikva or even a shul. Many jobs involve foreign travel, and much of the world is inhosptable to frum Jews. — You can go a little bit off the derekh (conceal being frum by dressing like a goy, find a way to “work” without doing malachos on Shabbos, switch to a lower standard of kashrus, etc.). But even a modern Orthodox (who keeps kosher and will stay have to decline food at work, who takes off Shabbos, who still walks to a shul on Shabbos) gives up a large percentage of career opportunities.
It says in the Torah וישמן ישורין ויבעט when the people ( cows) become fat (rich) they kick out (kick over the milk) they forget who made them rich. They think כחי ואוצם ידי עשה לי את החיל הזה through my strength and abilities I became fat or rich.
IDK, most rich people I know stayed on their level. A few became more frum. I think money just magnifies things. If you are improving in life, you will use the money to give more tzedaka and maybe work less so you can learn more. If you are on a downward slope, your money will give you acceptance with the crowd of more modern affluent people.
It is disappointing that you equate frumkeit with eating Cholov Stam. I can list several Gedolim who do not drink Cholov Yisroel. Rav Nochum Kornmehl was Dayan of Vilna, a confidant of Rav Moshe, and an expert in Kashrus and Gittin. He drank Cholov Stam.
Many people become less frum as they get older without the added wealth. But i think i do hear the pattern, dont think josephs crazy on this one.
amosak- calm down, his point is that even though they started off keeping to a certain standard, when money came this standard fell.
Aosak, Joseph added, “despite having grown up in a Cholov Yisroel only home” precisely because of this point.
I m find g an interesting pattern here. I know many many people who consider themselves talmidim or followers of rabbi miller.
What i find interesting though is that before they boasted of being a follower of rabbi miller they were very T’mimisdig and would hardly judge people and never assume the worst n others. But once they became followers of rabbi miller all that changed. Im not saying this applies to all followers of rabbi miller but just look around and its just so obvious. Just my observation and my 2¢I remember hearing this discussion more than 50 years ago with participants who has arrived in NYC from Eastern Europe circa 1910. In order to pay the rent, clothe the family and put food on the table they worked the American 6 day week in factories….goodbye Shabbos.
Children attended FREE Public School with limited rudimentary Jewish education given my a melamed a couple of afternoons each week.
As the family moved up the economic ladder, Shabbos work ended and the next generation kids went to Yeshiva or Day school. Those born in the late teens and early 1920s also afforded themselves of the college education available at CCNY and Hunter for only the cost of a subway fare.
This led to greater wealth as business owners and professionals and the ability to send the children to the best Yeshivos, buy the more expensive Cholov Yisroel and fund the frum institutions we take for granted today.
These families went from Euro-Traditional Jews to educated Frum Jews because of increased wealth, not in spite of it.
In the 50s and 60s increased wealth also meant vacations, summers and Yuntif at reliable certifed Kosher hotels in the Catskills or Miami Beach This was a much higher standard than the kitchens at a kuchelane in the 1930s, where all visitors prepared their own meals in the communal kitchen with no real supervision.
As prosperous businessmen, my father and uncles (A”H) had more available free time for learning than their grandfathers and great-grandfathers had as Greenhorns.“……But once they became followers of rabbi miller all that changed….”
It’s not just him, but followers of rabbis who preach an all-but-nothing, black & white approach & in lectures.This affluent vis-à-vis less frum opinion is stereotypical , non-proven and just a shovelful of dirt on people.
In the meantime, it says that poverty can remove a person from ” Daas M’kono” ….. meaning LESS frum. Doesn’t say that about wealthy.
Each category has its nisayon . I don’t know from where this OP got his stats , or maybe he was invited into thousands of homes and came loaded with a notebook and loose leaf….. Whatever….There are two tests poverty and affluence. Each has its own ordeal. The poor feels he has been forgotten and not being helped, whereas the affluent forgets who made him so. The cure is to remember that your current status comes from Hashem. He can make you poor or rich. Constantly keep in front of you the opposite. When you are poor, keep in mind that Hashem can make you rich, whereas when you are rich, remember, Hashem can change your fortune. The Chasan Sofer interprets the haggadah בשעה שיש מצה ומרור מונחים לפניך keep the good and the bad constantly in front of you. The word פרנסה might remind us of this. It has in it נס and נסה. For the poor, it is נסה a test, but for the rich, it should be a נס a miracle because he should always feel that he doesn’t deserve it.
Jews with limited economic possibilities has been the #1 reason in history why jews went OTD.
Many people were faced with the choice of starving or converting to christianity and they chose to convert (Alot more jews converted than you were led to belive, more converted than allowed themselves to be killed)
The Bilvavi (R’ Itamar Schwartz) has a long essay about the topic of over-materialism in the US, addressed to all frum Jews here. Here are a few paragraphs (google a sentence and you can find the rest on his website):
Our Lavish Lifestyle
People here [in America] are not just living in opulent homes, but in palaces! The houses of people here are becoming like graves.
This way of life was not how our ancestors lived. They lived and sought something completely different.
I can practically guarantee that your Gan Eden (Paradise) will not be nice as your houses. The Chovos HaLevavos writes that this world and the next are opponents. If so, they cannot coexist. Where should there be opulence? Either in the Bais HaMikdash (Temple), or in Gan Eden, but there should not be such a thing in this world.
This way of life has become so deep-rooted here that you do not understand that this is not the true way of life. This way of life has been going on for a few generations already.
How much do you work to pay for your house? People are devoting the entire day, their whole lives, to pay for more and more materialism.
If someone from Europe of old would visit this society, he would assume that this is must be Purim, and that gentiles are masquerading as Jews!
What we see is the opposite of how Jews should live.
Why don’t you immediately get up and move to the Land of Israel? Isn’t it more holy there? Isn’t it a little more spiritual there? It is more than a little. So why stay here? Obviously, because there you will have less money, and your home will be a quarter of the size: only five rooms…you want comfort…
Do we all want Moshiach to come and gather us to the Land of Israel?? Do you want to get up and go there when he comes?? If so, why not do it tonight? If we want true life, with spirituality, not with this materialism among the gentiles, are we able to take the first plane to Israel? But people make all sorts of excuses why they don’t move.
Life here is all about seeking materialism. You all live like the wealthiest. This entire way of life is wrong!
Look on פנו לכם צפונה where the Klei Yokor explains that we must act hidden in galus not to show off with our fancy houses and to forget that we are there, thereby making non-jews jealous of us.
Joseph,
That’s hogwash. Untold numbers also went OTD after being attracted to Bundism, Socialism, Communism and assimilation, which seemed to provide a way out of the crushing poverty of Jewish life in Europe.
I don’t know about the history with a centutry ago or more. I think the nisyonos of wealth may be very related to society, social influence and sociology. Therefore, when ya make a comparison from spain to our generation it doesnt really have as much weight .
The rights of jews to earn a living were quite limited in Europe, Many professions were closed to them all one had to do was convert and those economic opportunities were open to you. (And it created alot of resentment among old christians, that all of a sudden new christians got the same rights as they did, becoming a christian didnt always end anti-semitism
Why do you think jews left the Shtetl for the big cities and the USA at the turn of the century, it was economics, they could not make a living in the Shtel.
Zahavasdad, it wasn’t economics; it was always difficult. What changed was the level of persecution. The assassination of Czar Alexander in 1881 unleashed a perood of pogroms whose length and ferocity exceeded anything previously experienced by the Jews. It was this new terror, when added to the economic hardshjps, that prompted Jews to ignore the calls of rabbonim to stay and not emigrate to the US.
Joseph, do you have any source that says that jewish youth who went OTD and joined the various isms came from well off families? I mean other than it suits your agenda
In Germany the first son was allowed to marry, but each subsequent son had to pay a bigger and bigger tax so if you were the fourth of fifth son the tax was so high nobody could afford it. Many converted just so they could marry Life was tough for Jews in Germany before they were emacipated I think in ther 1850’s or so
Takes2totango– HOW DARE YOU?? Who do you think you are making a claim like that which is preposterous! HaRav Avigdor Miller Zt”l was one of the greatest tzaddikim of our generation and an anav and temimusdiga person and everything he exuded was of that nature. There are always followers of anybody who may not be an image of who they are following, but for the overwhelming majority of Talmidim of HaRav Miller Ztl they are very much like HaRav Miller Ztl was (and I Davened in his Shul for 15 years)
ZD has it right. In the Russian Pale which included Poland, the majority of Jews were from ok, to poor, to destitute. Many left the shtetels and moved to the cities. There , assimilation, socialism, Marxism, and the virulent anti-religious Bundism flowered both among the very few rich and mostly poor or lower middle class.
Throw in the pogroms and migration, Haskallah and what not and they left orthodoxy in droves.
There are no definitive surveys of the economic breakdowns, to my knowledge.
But even after cursory reading about the period from 1880 and on, it’s obvious that wealth had very little to do with holding on to Yiddishkeit. There was hardly wealth at all.There is a joke from the Ben Ish Chay on expression used in the gemora חסורא מחסרא והכי קתני that people learn when they are not so well-off.
I am facing this problem RIGHT NOW…. I have NOT been able to get any job where I am….as I will NOT work on Shabbos as every job requires here, in a town with very few Jews at all. I am facing HOMELESSNESS within a week, with no place to go to and very little money to go at all. I could have had a job long ago, if I was willing to work on my sabbath, or modify my sabbath somehow. AS a frium Yid I cannot do this at all. So, no work, no money just homelessness. AND….NO support from the frum community either, as NO JEWISH group handles where I am…. Local Chabad is very small and limited and of little help at all… Goyim will help, at the cost of YIDDISHKHEIT. Here I have had no pl,ace to turn to for help as a FRUM YID. I barely have the bus fare out of town, and the bus only allows ONE suitcase, I have to put my entire life into one suitcase….as a FRUM YID, I will need my talleisim, etc which take up much room, leaving little for much else. MUST I have to abandon everything else? How do I save anything? I need to be able to at least be able to put all into storage somewhere, and escape from here.
Where to go to? WHERE is there a FRUM homeless shelter? where can I get KOSHER FOOD? HERE…I will be able to sleep on the floor of a church, and eat only treif food. And I will loose all I own.
I have tried Jewish organizations all over the place, NONE will help. I must BE in their so called service area. But here is NOT serviced, except by goyim…..and NOBODY will help me to relocate.
DO I have to loose everything because I am staying FRUM and desire to have a SHABBOS, and not a sabbath or a saturday? MY OWN FRUM community has ignored me so far, I have only a few short days to utter devastation……all because I want to do the correct thing. WHY as a FRUM YID, Do I have to suffer so?
If I were a goy, or even a frei Yid I would NOT have these problems…I would have a job, NOT need expensive Kosher food, and be able to work any day goyim want me to be able to work….with NO restrictions. Should I have given up any of this to survive normally? Of course goyim think so….and the frum community in its ignorance of helping me is doing the same. Why can I NOT get any support from the frum community to be able to remain FRUM, and NOT loose all and my dignity?
I will be homeless and or loose everything BEFORE NEXT Shabbos! I only want to be able to live as a frum Yid in a frum community, with something viable. Am I asking too much? OR do the goyim win? For my stand here, by NOT being willing to work on SHABBOS, I am a laughing stock in this town. To the goyim I MUST be flexible, and I am NOT willing to give in one inch! I need to be able to be home before Shabbos begins….and cannot work at all ANY saturday EVER, NO exceptions here….No employer here will allow me to leve early on a friday.
Where is the frum community in my support? Why am I fighting this battle alone, and failing and falling into a deep abyss? I still have emmunah and bitachon.
Basically I need a truck to take Me and my belongings elsewhere. away from here to a frum environment.I have no license and have no money to pay for storage or a truck. I need a new start at a new place…I am quite willing to go almost anywhere, preferably EAST of where I am now….. AND, I need THIS before NEXT Shabbos and my pending eviction!
How would I, a FRUM YID even enter a church….or eat TREIF food?
I am truly exhausted trying to get help. I have very little strength (KOACH) left anymore. DO I really have to give IN to the wishes of the goyim? Do I have to enter their clutches?
All of this is to be able to STAY a FRUM YID….I am suffering greatly. And without immediate help, from who knows where, It will only be increasing. To be a frum YID here has been a true challenge.With little Kosher food available and often out of stock for extended periods of time, not to forego the very expensive prices I have had to pay for it…it is very easy to become treif, and not have this problem at all. It is very easy to work on saturdays as everybody else here does, and have a life….and not have to worry about homelessness. MUST I have to give all of this up? To the goyim this means NOTHING. BUT as a frum YID, this is my life! I am poorer than poor….and I will loose even what I have.
Will someone please reserve a space on a park bench for me? I can probably eat leaves and grass. At least they are kosher and I can still be a frum yid. I may freeze and starve to death from this , but I will remain a frum yid.. Must I lower myself to this?
I will have to give up everything to be able to stay a frum yid….. No organization will save me as such, they all provide excuses. And, where is there any oysher to help?
zdad,
“(Alot more jews converted than you were led to belive, more converted than allowed themselves to be killed)“
What’s your source for this?
This story of the out town yid is very convincing. If we don’t help him somehow what is the use of this whole forum? I am a senior retired living on social security, not rich. I don’t know how everyone else is. Maybe we can tell him where to turn to.
Do a little research and you will see how many jews actually converted to christinity, In Spain its likely more jews converted to christianity and stayed christian than either became marranos or left
There are also some very famous people who come from conversos or converted themselves among them Nostradamus, Banjamin Disraeli and Madeline Albright.
The sister of Emma Lazarus converted and there are lots more that arent even famous, it is estimated that up to a 1/3 of Spanish and Portugese people have jewish blood
Adocs, the conversions did not all takr place in 1492. As more of Spain was retaken by thr Spanish in the 1300s, Jewish persecutions became more frequent. The culminated in violent attacks in 1391 which resulted in over 100,000 forced conversions. In the 1400s Spain enacted economic restrictions on Jews to enable the Catholics to compete. This resulted in the first large scale VOLUNTARY conversion as Jews converted to escape the restrictions.
For that poor fellow who needs kosher food and help.Contact satmar bikur cholim and or lakewood/brooklyn tomchai shabbos
I for one, have decided to probably be coming back to Jewish civilization, at long last. I am abandoning everything here where I am and leaving town very early sunday morning. I am very destitute, I have NO place to go in NYC area. b BUT I do not care anymore. I would rather be homeless among MY PEOPLE than with goyim….I may be sleeping in Shomrei Shabbos soon….See everybody in NY soon….. My entire life will be in one suitcase. I have no other choice. I just cannot stand It here at all anymore, and there is nothing for me HERE except homelessness among goyim. I am paying a huge price. I have NO PLACE to go and even less of a place to be able to take anything I own…. I have tried everything I can think of to avoid this. I am getting a car ride to NYC area. I will need parnosa and a place to stay, and everything else also. I am giving up everything to return…. I will no longer be OUT OF TOWN YID anymore… I am lEAVING for NY VERY EARLY sunday morning and will not have internet access. I also do not have a working phone as my government minutes have run out for the month. I am quite destitute,,,,all for SHABBOS….I will NOT work ON Shabbos anytime, and I strongly uphold these principles. I remain a frum YID. It is never easy and our society has only made it harder for us….OUR OWN PEOPLE do not support themselves at all. I have found this out the very hard way. WHERE is our help? if it is there at all It is much too buried for me to find it…. AND…our help is coming with strings attached…..often it is ONLY a referral to goyim… In my case I have been sent to Local area Chabad which is ill equipped to handle anything, and to UNITED WAY and associated groups, which are all goyim here. What would I do with goyishe groups such as Salv army? their buildings are churches, but they call them community centers. Everything at these goyishe places is church related…everywhere…there is NO such thing as secular by them, they always throw in a bit about their goyishe environment….no matter how much it is THERE….A food pantry has a big sign on a wall about a Biblical verse from the NT… It SAYS it is nonsectarian….everybody is welcome, of course. In OUR facilities we do NOT dare to put OUR Biblical quotes on a wall. WE will be violating laws of church and state.
Many years ago I had cause to visit a well known Jewish Childrens organization. I was shocked at what I saw there. The children had ONLY toys related to fairy tales and TV and the like, I thought that NONE of these toys, or books was appropriate for a Jewish child…..Books were all completely so called secular….There was NOT one Jewish toy or book anywhere, NOTHING from artscroll…. When I asked about this I was told that THEY could NOT have such things there….governmental regulations…..well they are very much in place despite governmental regulations in goyishe places.Things have of course never changed from the past at all, probably gotten a bit worse. And, the out of area JEW has it hurting him the MOST when he needs it the MOST support of all. Where I am for another day, I personally know a few Yidden who are now completely blended in with local society here, and have completely lost all ties with Yiddishkheit. ONCE FRUM, they have all but abandoned Yiddishkheit. All goyishe authorities are quite unable to understand US at all. WE MUST take much better care of our OWN FRUM people. Groups like Chabad and others, try to get Jews to return, aka KIRUV… How about trying much better to RETAIN our OWN FRUM people BEFORE a crisis ….I am risking everything to return….. much too many other people will just GIVE IN…..
I have seen MANY goyim being helped at JEWISH organizations, but are WE very comfortable at goyishe organizations? I certainly feel very ill at ease there.
Well, I hope that I never have to encounter any goyishe influences ever again. See you all back in FRUM JEWISH CIVILIZATION, where I belong.
I wish you tremendous hatzlocho!
Gut Voch. Welcome to the frum in town community! Wish u much hatzlacha. Mshane makom may u have tons of good mazel here
Its not as good as the in towners say, but not as bad as the out of towners make it
I have not commented much because of OOT post and I dont want to seem unsympthetic or dont think he is doing alot of meserasd nefesh he is.
However historically people were in various circumstance, If you were starving AND had kids who were also starving and on the verge of homlessness (Dont forget there was no welfare state, if you didnt work, you didnt eat) Would you keep shabbos , if that was the only job available. Whatever your answer is, many people given their destituteness choose that job on Shabbos. Thats a rough test, your children are starving and you might lose the roof they live under. As much as your dedication to yddishkeite, some people just had to make another choicee because they had no other choice, it was work or starve
Joseph,
That’s hogwash. Evidence? Nobody knows OOTY’s real story, just as nobody knows yours. For all we know, you’re both trolls, or even the same troll, living in your mother’s basement. Stop using this forum to constantly make critical statements about entire segments of Jews you don’t even know.
Here I was rather limited in job choices also. Many treif food places here, cannot work in any …NOT one food place here, as Jews are a bit limited in WHAT we can do for some parnosa. AS a FRUM YID, I feel very uncomfortable calling or answering phones on a mass scale. Many call center jobs here, customer service, etc, Many jobs here do not fit into my lifestyle, so I could not do them at all, this is in addition to not being able to work on Saturdays. Most places are closed, except for a little bit of retail, on Sundays. there is also no public transportation on Sundays here.
The worst thing, is that I know I am not alone, as I have seen too many former frum yidden give in…but I will NOT….WE do NOT help our OWN to stay frum. Then….we wonder….why and how did they go off the derech? It is very simple….NO support from their own community. Too many jewish groups just send you to the government for their help. It is far from enough and outside of our world. I have seen it up close, luckily I have rejected it to remain who I am…..Try contacting somehow sm rubashkin. Im sure he will do anything in his power to help u. Just make sure he finds out about you asap so he can actually help. He’s eager to help out yiddin who are going through alot.
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