Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › B'chor Doing Avodah in Beis HaMikdash & Yerusha
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March 29, 2011 2:41 am at 2:41 am #595981shlishiMember
Three related questions:
When the redemption comes, and the 3rd Beis HaMikdash is established, will the Avodah be done by b’chorim (first-borns) as originally intended before Kohanim replaced them due to the sin of the eigel?
Also, if a first-born son was born via Caesarean section (C-section) is he still considered a b’chor — for a double portion of the yerusha, for the Avodah, for ????? ?????? on Erev Pesach, etc.?
And does the halacha as codified in Shulchan Aruch provide that a b’chor today receives a double portion yerusha of his parents’ estate?
March 29, 2011 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1050347Feif UnParticipantI’ve heard that when Mashiach comes, the b’chorim will do the avodah. However, there is a famous story with the Chofetz Chaim that showed he held that when Mashiach comes, he, as a kohen, will do it. Maybe both will?
As for the C-section question, I asked that to a Rav, as my oldest is a boy who was born via c-section. I was told that all the halachos are the same except for pidyon haben.
March 29, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1050348shlishiMemberWhy should a C-section be treated differently for ????? ???? than for ????? ?????? (or ????? for that matter)? Either he is considered a ???? or not.
March 29, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1050349Derech HaMelechMemberBecause he was not the ??? ???, the doctor was.
March 29, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1050350YW Moderator-80Memberim not even sure that is called peter rechem
March 29, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1050351BHTWIAParticipantThere is a big difference between pidyon haben and yerusha. Pidyon haben is peter rechem – 1st born of the mother. Pi shnayim for yerusha is reishis ono – 1st born of the father. A man with multiple wives could end up being podeh a son multiple times, but only one will get pi shnayim in the yerusha. Therefore, I don’t think we can compare the halachos of pidyon haben with yerusha. As for taanis bechorim, I’m not familiar with the halachos, but lav davka that the rules are comparable with pidyon haben and/or yerusha.
March 29, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1050352shlishiMemberFor a ???? to do the ????????? in the ?????????????????, does he have to be a ??? ????
March 29, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1050353Derech HaMelechMemberFor a ???? to do the ????????? in the ?????????????????, does he have to be a ??? ???
I’m tempted to say yes because it says in ????? ?’ ?”?-?”?, that ??? ??? was taken “??? ?? ???? ??? ???”.
March 30, 2011 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1050354shlishiMemberWe still have unresolved regarding whether ????? ?????? is like ????? ???? and applies to a ??? ??? firstborn son of the mother (and therefore a father can have more than one such ???? – each from a different wife), or ????? ?????? is like ????? and applies to the firstborn son of the father, Reishis Ono, who needn’t be a ??? ???.
Using my own logic, without knowing the sources, since the idea of ????? ?????? on ??? ??? comes because the Jewish firstborns were spared from ?????? ??????????, and Makos B’choros is also the reason the ?????????? were chosen to do the ????????? in the ?????????????????, it would seem that ????? ?????? would only apply to a ??? ???, and as such someone born via C-section wouldn’t be included.
Another point that wasn’t addressed is whether the ????? ???? says that a ???? today receives ?? ????? (a double portion) for his ????? from his father.
March 30, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1050355Feif UnParticipantI was told that I have to fast until my son is 13.
March 30, 2011 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1050356shlishiMemberWhat if you were a ???? yourself, who would cover your minor son (the ????)?
April 18, 2011 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1050357Joseph / clark-kentMemberJust came from a siyum. I’m wondering if it is preferable to fast or to have a siyum?
As far as the OT, perhaps the b’chorim will do the Avodah while the Kohanim, who are also Levyim obviously, will play the instruments and do what the Levyim do (along with the ‘plain’ Levyim.)
Another interesting issue is whether a Ger may be considered a b’chor, since a convert is considered to be ‘born again’ at the time of conversion. Probably not though since he is lacking peter rechem.
April 18, 2011 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1050358ItcheSrulikMemberDerech: Isn’t there a gemara in Arachin like that?
April 18, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1050359workingParticipantThe Taanis Bechorim can’t be compared to Pidyon Haben at all.
If a woman has a miscarriage there is no Pidyon Haben but Taanis Bechorim does apply.
April 21, 2011 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1050360HealthParticipant“I’ve heard that when Mashiach comes, the b’chorim will do the avodah. However, there is a famous story with the Chofetz Chaim that showed he held that when Mashiach comes, he, as a kohen, will do it. Maybe both will?”
I hope you’re wrong and only the Kohanim will do it. I don’t like to work because I’m fat and lazy!
April 3, 2013 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1050361LanderTalmidParticipantAs Derech mentioned earlier the pasuk says that the kohanim were taken in place of the “peter rechem”s. This fits with Rashi who says that Eisav was created second but came out first.
????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????, ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??, ?????? ?????? ??? ??????, ??????? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????, ?????? ?? ????, ????? ?? ?????? ?? ????:
We see that Yacov had to buy the bechorah since eventhough he was created first the bechorah goes to whomever came out first.- peter rechem
However regarding the makas bechoros there is a chazal that explains why Hashem Himself had to kill the bechorim and not through a malach, because only Hashem can distinguish between a drop that produced a bechor and one that didn’t. This means that the bechorim that died in Makas bechoros were the fistborn to their father.
There are two reasons given for the taanis bechorim. I think that the Nafkah minah would be a C section. If we learn that they fast b/c of being spared in the Makah then all that matters is whether you are a first born to your father, however if it is for losing the avodah it would only apply to a peter rechem- one who opened his mother’s womb.
December 29, 2014 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1050362ujewParticipantAs for the C-section question, I asked that to a Rav, as my oldest is a boy who was born via c-section. I was told that all the halachos are the same except for pidyon haben
The Mechaber paskens in Choshen Mishpat ???, ? that ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???.
As far as Ta’anis B’chorim the Shaarei Teshuva in Orach Chaim ??, ? is ????? whether the Yotzei Dofen has to fast.
See here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_28075_28.pdf
[??”? ??’ ?”? ??”?] ???? ??? ???? ???????. (?) ????”? ?????? ??”? [???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ?”? ?????? ???? ??”?] ???? ????? ???????. (?) ????”? ??????? ????”? [??”? ?????? ??????? ??? ?’ ??’ ??”?] ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???????, ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???’ ?????? ???????
The comment of Health above should not have been said even as a joke. It is reminiscent of “Lama Zeh Li B’chorah” said by Eisav – “Vayivez Eisav es Habechora”.
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