baseball games

@old man

The problem isn’t that it is “hevel”. The issue at hand is the issur of following in the ways of the goyim (chukas akum) and darchei emori. As I said before there are prominent halachic authorities which include things that the goyim do for no purpose at all (and not just things which are done lsheim avodah zarah). The question is whether these are considered to be chumras or included in the actual issur of chukas akum. Additionally if one were to do such things for different purposes than the goyim it may not fall under the category of chukas akum. Either way this is a valid halachic and hashkafic question about which one should inquire with their local posek/rav.

old man, you missed my post after that. I said that if you want to disagree with a rav, you should say it in a nicer way. Don’t say straight out that they’re wrong, because that’s not true. Say in a kavodik way that you hold differently because of x. Don’t say they’re wrong and you hold differently. Nobody needs your comments on if they’re wrong. It’s not needed, motzei shem ra and not kavodik. You need to have kavod Hatorah. It’s because of comments like that why people in the world are against the CR.

My original discussion was NOT about following sports. You (and other posters as well) brought that in as a side note. I, and the Roshei Yeshiva who I quoted were talking about GOING to a game, not necessary FOLLOWING sports.

I agree with jbaldy22 and OURtorah. I said earlier that this is the way I was brought up, and I was saying this whole time why I think it’s wrong to go a baseball game.

I didn’t miss any posts.

If a Rosh Yeshiva doesn’t want his bochrim to go to the stadium, common sense dictates he say that a stadium is an inappropriate place for a yeshiva boy for such and such reasons.

Once the Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe, or Posek feels that that approach won’t work, he is liable to attempt one or both of the following: Either ridicule the act (hevel) or label it assur al pi halachah by invoking the always available chukos hagoyim argument.

Ridiculing the sport reflects poorly on the Rosh Yeshiva, as it shows how out of touch he really is. The chukos hagoyim argument is a feeble attempt at attaching a prohibition to an innocent act. It can be ripped to shreds by any beginning Talmud student, as has been pointed out by others here.

My point is simple. The Rosh Yeshiva doesn’t want his bochrim going to Yankee Stadium? Then he must present arguments that hold up under scrutiny. After all, his Rabbeim trained the boys to think, didn’t he?

@old man

chukas hagoyim is not a “feeble argument” it is a topic of discussion in the shulchan aruch, among many rishonim, and is a topic of discussion in gemarah avoda zarah and a couple of other gemaras I can’t recall off hand. I believe there is a rashi that mentions darchei emori in chumash in relevance to going to the amphitheaters – although rashi himself would not hold that sports nowadays is an issue and the issue there was that they served a”z. It is mentioned in many modern day shu”t as well. If I wasn’t working right now I would compile a list of mareh mkomos for you on the subject. It is not a simple issue at all.

As an aside the point is not just intermingling – it is also following non-jewish trends for example wearing red. I believe chassidim don’t wear ties for the same reason. Ditto with the whole celebrating thanksgiving issue.

jbaldy22, the point that these Roshei Yeshivos made when they said this is that you shouldn’t look at what the goyim do for enjoyment. I’m not going to deny that it’s enjoyable. Going to movies is enjoyable and yet it’s not exactly the most kosher entertainment out there, if you know what I mean. Going to a baseball game is enjoyable, however, it’s something that shouldn’t be done, especially on chol hamoed. As I noted before, it’s not a kosher atmosphere to be in, as well as chukas hagoyim.

@yeshivaguy45

there is a major difference between telling something to a yachid or telling something to a whole class. If the rebbi believes the guy needs such a thing (although I really can not see a circumstance in which it would help) thats one thing. But saying that to a whole class or yeshiva is unbecoming of someone of their status and unhelpful. One can say something is hevel without denying that it is enjoyable (as you yourself said). It is a very fine line to walk. Unfortunately I have heard quite a few rebbeim attempt to argue with reality and it did not make them look good in the eyes of their talmidim. Also such a line of thought if it must be expressed should be said to an age appropriate audience. Not elementary school kids.

jbaldy22, in this case you’re right. I concur with that. My point was that rebbeim do understand sports, more than you think they do.

I go to baseball games several times a year its fun its relaxing you get to enjoy the sunny weather but thats me.

Just because one rav has an opinion on sports doesn’t mean that his talmidim have to share it.

I (lehavdil, if you’d like) personally hate sports. It’s easy to catch me incredulously trying to figure out why my dad and sister follow football and enjoy it. But I accept that there is SOMETHING, even if I am incapable of understanding it or even find that something to be wrong for whatever reason.

With all due respect to these mechanchim, I find it hard to believe that the best way to get students to buy their opinion is to specifically NOT validate their students’ desires and interests. If my teacher told me to stop watching movies, I’d consider her words if she told me that there are problems with shemiras einayim or it was time I could use for other things. If she told me that it’s stupid to want to blow my time watching fake stuff, I’d know that she’s not thinking about how to help ME at all- she’s thinking of how to transmit HER personal opinion to anyone who would listen. She’s not even TRYING to understand why I might possibly want to watch stupid fake stuff, just applying her blanket philosophy to everyone without thought about their individual feelings.

The story about the soccer game simply uses soccer as a mashal and, in fact, validates the student’s love of the game, in fact in a way equating it to ameilus baTorah in a way that the student could appreciate. Calling a baseball game stupid may have been the practice of a rosh yeshiva who sincerely believed it (and honestly, I can’t blame him…) but it’s not a way to really take his talmidim and their individual personalities into account and it won’t really convince anyone who doesn’t want to be convinced.

Back to the original topic- I’ve been to about five baseball games (Mets) and a couple more basketball games (back when the Nets were in the Meadowlands) and I don’t think it’s a problem. My family probably wouldn’t consider going on chol hamoed, though. Like people said, it’s not really the spirit of yom tov.

DY, I agree with you. I personally know of someone who was smoking and it led to drugs.He was caught and expelled from his yeshiva. This guy couldn’t find anywhere to go, and ended up in a yeshiva for off the derech guys. Today he’s not frum. Does that mean that the rebbeim who expelled him are responsible? Does that mean that they shouldn’t have expelled him? No! He was doing something against yeshiva policy and disrupting other bochurim.

I also know someone who was starting to go off the derech in yeshiva. He was talking to girls and skipping seder. Then slowly his life started changing. He stopped talking to girls as much and started learning more. Then his cell phone got taken away. That was a big disappointment for him and he started going back to the way he was before. He eventually left yeshiva and went to a drop out yeshiva and went downhill from there. (I haven’t seen him for awhile, but I heard he’s getting back on track.)Does this mean that the Rebbeim were wrong for doing something like that? No! They were doing something that was against the policy of yeshiva and it was disrupting other bochurim. (This bochur had several friends and so the Rebbeim knew that his cell phone was disrupting others.)

zehavasdad, I know burning out can happen. I have a friend who snapped because he was learning too much. I know what it’s like. However there are ways how to deal with it. If you’re in that situation, you should talk to a mashgiach, or a rebbe who understands you. Don’t decide something like that on your own.

“you have to show that the Jews are different from everyone else”

Indeed. Sandy Koufax, who wasn’t even religious, told the world that there are things more important than success, when he refused to pitch in the World Series because the game was on Yom Kippur. Hank Greenberg, who had more of a religious background, had done pretty much the same thing three decades earlier. Name me a single non-Jewish athlete who has ever skipped a game for religious reasons.

“The issue at hand is the issur of following in the ways of the goyim (chukas akum) and darchei emori.”

The emorim are long gone. And the many admonitions in the Torah about not following in “their ways” refer to the abominable religious practices that Baruch HaShem aren’t practiced today. Frankly, these aren’t the best arguments for saying not to go to Yankee Stadium.

But there are indeed reasons not to go to Yankee Stadium! If you go to the Zoo you learn about the animals; Rabbi Slifkin gives Torah tours of zoos all over the world where he discusses the issues involved in identifying animals mentioned in the Torah, the issues in determining the kashrut of an animal or bird, and the homiletic and midrashic statements regarding different animals. Dr. Jon Greenberg, a plant expert who is also a talmid chacham, leads tours of botanical gardens where he addresses similar issues regarding plants — “torah flora”. My shul sponsored a guided tour of the Greek collection at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in order to learn more about Chanukah, and a similar tour just a week ago of the Egyptian collection for obvious reasons. Visit the Natural History Museum to learn more about HaShem’s creations and to find yourself more in awe regarding your creator. And of course there are the numerous historical museums — I love the Center for Jewish History on 16th Street.

Or take the family on a hike in the mountains or along a deserted barrier island before the non-tzniut clothing takes over, you will see the natural beauty of HaShem’s creation.

Or take the family to one of the many historical sites in the area, learning more about the past.

All of these are *so* much more productive than sporting events! You don’t need a chukat hagoyim argument to understand that!!!

And of course the people we look up to should be the people who dedicate their lives to saving the lives of others; the people who dedicate their lives to educating others; the people who dedicate their lives to improving the lives of others; and last but definitely not least Torah scholars. It isn’t a Jewish thing to idolize someone for athletic accomplishments.

The Torah says “uvchukoseihem lo seileichu.” R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l (yd vol.4 ch.11 p.168) explicitly explains that this only refers to a behavior which may possibly stem from idol worship–NOT modern stadiums.

The above is, and should be, conclusive, to end that part of this discussion for mainstream, non-chassidic, american, orthodox jews.

R’ Moshe also says that such places should be avoided due to bitul torah and leitzanus.

R’ Moshe might very well write similar words regarding eg the BMG coffee room.

Bitul torah and leitzanus are relative concepts which must be evaluated in the context of subjectivity and alternatives.

Yeshivaguy45- Using anecdotal evidence regarding what gedolim of yesteryear thought about sports has no relevance to the discussion regarding whether or not it is appropriate for a frum yid today to go to a game. Additionally, it wasn’t just gedolim who didn’t appreciate sports, it was nearly all eastern europeans of his generation. R’ Shlomo Heiman zt”l might have said similar things about many aspects of american culture which are now a significant part of the yeshiva world.

Sadly, people often confuse cultural differences for hashkafic differences. In other words R’ Shlomo may have been saying “serious people don’t know anything about sports,” which is a statement that is far less true for american born people today.

Bottom Line – We were created to be productive. The most productive thing we can do is become close to God. All decisions should be viewed in that context including the one involving whether or not to have an enjoyable family outing on chol hamoed to a ballgame.

One thing is for sure: what the “average yeshivishe family” does should have little to no bearing on the subjective aspects of this or any decision (unless sadly there is some detestable blackmail like getting your kids into school or married off).

Finally, I like following sports. When my team wins, I feel good. Keeping updated on the stats, standings, news and discussions are enjoyable to me. That is a fact. Should I feel this way? While my answer is “I think so,” the more important point is that I do feel this way. Telling me I shouldn’t feel something and/or making fun of my feelings won’t help me change them. I’d have to understand WHY I feel this way and why it is destructive before I can work on the underlying reasons, otherwise I’d just become conflicted and in denial. And if I was a child, I might become guilt-ridden, confused, sullen, disconnected, angry and rebellious. It might be just me. It might even be partially my choice. But I think there are others like me out there. And I think that for their sake, their rebbeim should perhaps go easy on some of the anecdotes from previous generations.

Rabbi Slifkin gives Torah tours of zoos all over the world where he mocks the issues involved in identifying animals mentioned in the Torah, the issues in determining the kashrut of an animal or bird, and the homiletic and midrashic statements regarding different animals

I fixed that for you.

kosher circus. all problems solved.

not to pasken but the Gemmorah says kol hamavazah es hamoados k’ilu oved avodah zarah. Rashi learns that this refers to chol hamoed.So while going to a game for kids may be ok, adults should think long and hard about it.R’Yaakov Kameminetzky ztz’l famously said chol hamoed is yom tov with a few kulos.