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Does anyone think its not Chol Hamoedik to go to a baseball game on Chol Hamoed?
It is not a chol hamoed outing. It’s not in the spirit of chol hamoed. In my opinion, you should never go to a baseball game to begin with, but that’s the way I was brought. Different people from different backgrounds have different decisions.
What would be the reasons why you would not be able to go?
Compared to what? An amusement park? A museum? A concert?
Instead of: Learning all day? Playing baseball or some other sport?
depends whos playing.
Plenty of frum Jews go to the games.
zahavasdad, your average yeshivish family doesn’t go to baseball games.
How is baseball game different than going to the zoo. At least at a baseball game you are watching people and not animals.
Ive seen plenty of Yeshivish people at the games.
Ive also seen lots of Chassidish people at the games
jack777, Boruch Hashem, you obviously never went to a baseball game or even imagined what it looks like. However, the atmosphere is definitely different than a zoo. There’s no comparison whatsoever
If you go to a baseball game on a Sunday Afternoon, Its mostly families with Kids C’V people should be at such a place
zahavasdad, that’s unusual because most yeshivish guys that I know would never go to a game. My Rosh Yeshiva (I call him my Rosh Yeshiva even though I’m not in that yeshiva anymore) always says over from R’ Shlomo Heiman, (It’s a line in Yiddish. I’ll translate) Ein mentsh varft a pilka, noch a mentch shlept a shteckin, un fiftzig goyim shreiin Eiy! (One person throws a ball, Another person drags a stick and fifty goyim scream Eiy!)
yg45, all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
Maybe they say they wont got to a game to you, but they are going.
And Ill tell you a secret..They are also going to Hockey Basketball and Football games too.
The Rosh yeshivah was referring to a mets game as usually by a mets game the crowd is only 50 people.
Thanks to dans deals iyh there will be a large frum crowd at the mets game chol hamoed- maybe they can insert matza into the take me out to the ballpark song.
L’maaseh it’s not a kosher activity. You’re telling me yeshivish people do go. Personally, I was brought up to not go to baseball game. I went to a baseball game when I was in camp about 15 years ago. That was about it. However, it’s not a kosher activity, being with non jews like that and the people there aren’t exactly the type of people you’d want to hang around with. There are also issues with Lo Selech B’chokos Hagoy.
zehavasdad, there are other issues besides for the ones I just mentioned when going to basketball and football games and that is that there’s definite pritzus as there are cheerleaders.
It’s definitely not in the sppirit of Chol Hamoed. In major cities, they try to have a big attraction on Chol Hamoed so people won’t get bored.
As sports go, baseball raises the fewest issues. For starters everyone is properly dressed. Even in women’s softball game they aren’t allowed to dress immodestly (by goysha standards). And there are no cheerleaders in baseball. There is a problem if they have a woman sing the national anthem(s), but that’s about it. The game is largely incomprehensible if you never played it. Of all sports (other than chess), baseball poses the fewest issues from frum Jews who want to participate in it – and participating in a sport ties in with watching it at a professional or collegiate level.
yeshivaguy45,
I don’t know where you are hailing from, and maybe out of town is different, but when I grew up the Yeshiva used to take the (elementary school) kids to baseball games for lag b’omer and it was quite common for yeshiva bochurim to go to baseball games bein hazmanim.
I know that in Lakewood they don’t allow it and for the most part it is not done, but I think that in most American cities baseball games are considered good clean entertainment.
akuperma, if you noticed I raised the issue of cheerleaders by football and basketball, not by baseball. There are other issues by baseball, as I mentioned. You’re right, it’s fewer issues, but if you ask your local hashkafic rabbi, you’ll realize that there are still issues. As for pritzus by baseball games, the people sitting next to you aren’t exactly dressed the way a regular bais yaakov girl would dress, to put it mildly. If it’s cold, then that takes care of that problem,. but there are other issues as well.
Not all football has Cheerleaders,Only certain teams do,The Giants do NOT have them (The Jets do have them).
The whole idea of Chukas Hagoyim can really apply to anything, Theorectically it could apply to the Mall.
If you dont want to go, you dont have to, but its clear many do go and many go with their kids.
The reality is very few Pareve outlets are allowed anymore. One does need breaks. Sports generally is as pareve as it gets
Hashkafically, football has issues. As a rebbe in a yeshiva that I attended (yes that same yeshiva) put it in a shmuz “You go to a game to watch 22 goyim beat up another 22 goyim.” (That yeshiva wasn’t against sports, they were against going to sports games.) I agree that people need breaks, but you can definitely find kosher entertainment.
The New York Giants have 2 jewish players Mark Herzlich and Geoff Schwartz.
The New York Mets have Ike Davis. grants none of these men are frum jews , but they are not Goyim either.
There was also a player for the Cowboys and Packers who became a Baal Tshuva and does speaking for Chabad (Alan Veingrad)
benignuman, I posted before I saw your post. I went to an elementary school which was mainly run by chassidim but most kids in the school were litvish. They would never go out to a baseball game. On lag b’omer, we either went to the zoo or went to the park and played baseball and had a barbecue.
If you ever went to a baseball game, I think you would agree that it’s the most clean entertainment you could possibly get. Baseball itself is not bad, it’s the atmosphere around it that is.
yeshivaguy45: If you are too concerned about what the goyim wear, the United States is not a good place. During the summer, except for formal dress, the goyim tend to cut back on clothes. To avoid them, you are largely confined to small isolated frum colonies, at least during the summer. Forget about shopping at non-frum stores, using public transit, or really going out in public. In general, baseball fans, especially at night games (as are most professional games), are no more immodest than what one will find on the public streets.
I think someone Hijacked Akuperma’s account!!!
@macklamore The real question you should be asking yourself is why you have not made aliyah yet. Then you not have these questions
akuperma, if your account hasn’t been hijacked, the way my rebbe explained it to me (or rather to my parents who asked him what to do as an outlet) is that yes there is pritzus out there and there are places you shouldn’t go (beaches, waterparks, amusement parks that have waterparks attached to them, etc.) But at the same time, you have to live. You have to be able to live and enjoy life.
yes, I am aware that there are Jews who play on professional sports teams. But they’re not frum. In any case, I wasn’t talking about playing for a professional team. I was talking about going to a game in general.
benignuman, I see that I have a typo. My last post should have been, If you’ve ever been to a baseball game, you’ll see that it’s NOT the most clean place entertainment you could possibly get.
What is left?
You have banned Beaches, Waterparks , Amusement parks,Sporting Events , The Mall ..And other things that werent mentioned but Im sure they are not good either
basically almost all you have left is the Yeshiva and your backyard
If you’ve ever been to a baseball game, you’ll see that it’s NOT the most clean place entertainment you could possibly get
Since you yourself said you had only been once, How do you know what goes on there or who goes. And I am telling you on Sunday afternoons its mostly families.
yeshivaguy- I feel like ur being under attack here!! im not here to attack you as I understand where your Rebbi is coming from. I understand and repect your descions to stay away from sporting events. although I do have a question:
how did your Rebbi explain to you to interact with goyim in apositive way. if not going out and being your frum self, showing the world that frum jews are amazing people! I understand if you yourself arenot prepared to go out into the world, but you dont know how many people around you are acctualy jews who are simply not frum anymore and what a hashpa you cab have kn them.
I go to secular collage. YES EVERYONE SHUN ME lol. but its really because A There is a huge frum community in teh school and B I come from a vey modern home and my parents want me there.
yeshiva guy- you wanna see pritzus (no you dont) come to my school! what do I do about it? I make a kiddush Hashem. each and everyday of my life. I dress bAruch Hashem tzniously, my teachers are always impressed by how respectful I am and my classmates who many are Jewish but not frum are always asking me questions.
is it comfertable? not always! but I really think that you dont need to be so ignorant of the fact that pritzus is out there. its in lakewood. its in brooklyn. its in ur backyard. you cant escape it. you need to learn about to deal wih it properly. I think by doing so you will live a much more God fearing life. not only that but side point- I love my collage more than I thoguht I would, simply cuz BH I am very strong in who I am, and the contrast betwee. the goyim and I makes me love Hashem that much more.
Roshei yeshiva who poke fun at professional sports, whether it be football (22 goyim beating each other up)or baseball (ein mentsch varft a pilka), are displaying ignorance rather than wisdom.
I could say the same thing about chess: what a silly game, moving funny looking wood on a board with silly boxes, and thinking so long about it before they move a piece! What nonsense!
But anyone who understands football, baseball, chess, or almost any sport, realizes that there is a great deal of intelligence, reasoning and strategy involved. And understanding sport is to appreciate it. Is it Torah? No. But it has value, and each person can determine that value for himself.
Why make fun of something one knows nothing about? Rather than presenting a convincing argument, it reflects rather poorly on the commenter himself. These Roshei Yeshiva, as is said in sports, are shooting the puck into their own net.
macklemore what would you consider appropriste for chok hamoed? meaning if its a way to have fun with your friends and your on break then go for it. but if you think you should be doing meaningful things then maybe choose somethig wth more meaning?
ourtorah, I do feel like I’m being attacked. I’m trying to go through each person’s comments one by one.
My Rebbeim explained that to make a Kiddush Hashem, you have to show that the Jews are different from everyone else. If you show people that you are different and do things in a different way, then people will respect you. It sounds like you’re doing the best you can.
If you know me, you’ll know that I’m not the type to sit in my home and do nothing because of pritzus. There are things to do. I go out and do things. I am definitely not ignorant of the fact that there’s pritzus out there. I live in an out of town community, I know what it’s all about. The way I was raised is that you should be a frum yid even where there’s tumah.
You have banned Beaches, Waterparks , Amusement parks,Sporting Events , The Mall ..And other thingsthat werent mentioned but Im sure they are not good either
I haven’t banned it, the Torah has banned it.
You can go out to a park where people usually don’t go to and take a walk. You can go hiking. You can go to museums, the list is endless of what you could do.
There’s a story of a family who went to the airport on chol hamoed to ride the train for several hours. A pilot saw them and told them, “I fly all the time but I barely ever see my family.You probably barely ever fly because you have a big family but you guys spend time together as a family. I fly, but I’m going nowhere, and you don’t fly but you’re going places.”
old man,Makcklemore-I’m not talking about playing sports. I happen to be athletic. I’m talking about going to a game in general. I happen to like playing sports. these Roshei Yeshiva are talking about watching a game at a stadium.
old man, an added note. I heard a shmuz from a rebbe at the current yeshiva I am in. He spoke about daas Torah and If a gadol says something, you listen. He said, “On Yeshiva World News, sometimes they have a statement from a gadol, and on the bottom, they have comments about it. People just write their comments on what the gadol said, whether it was right or wrong to say such a thing. It’s daas Torah! If a Gadol said it, then listen to him. We don’t need your comments!”
Yeshivaguy45,
I will admit going to a baseball game is not the cleanest entertainment you can get. My point was only that in various yeshivish circles it is considered acceptable even if in others it is not. Agav going to a zoo in the summertime is also not the cleanest entertainment you can get.
I TOTALLY agree with the yeshiva guy there is a posuk that says:”do not walk in the way of the goyim”(parashas kedoshim perek 20, posuk 23.
benignuman, I agree with you on that point
My Rebbeim explained that to make a Kiddush Hashem, you have to show that the Jews are different from everyone else. If you show people that you are different and do things in a different way, then people will respect you. It sounds like you’re doing the best you can.
Another opinion is that if you show them you are different, People take that as standoffish and rude. If you are in an office and work with lots of people, Showing that you are “Better than everyone else” is not a good way to get along with people especially in the workplace where you might need other workers to get the work done and everyone to succedd.
And I can tell you from personal experience its NOT a good idea for people to think you are standoffish , rude and better than them.
What does “Walk in the way of the Goyim mean”?
Can you go to the Mall and shop at Macy’s or must you shop on 13th Ave in BP?
Does it mean if you can ride the Subway?? Goyim ride the Subway
YG mentioned the museum, lots of Goyim go to the museums or the Zoo
It really means whatever you want it to mean
just got an email from a philly lawyer offering me his his firm’s skybox( 12 private glass enclosed seats) for 4/30 , Phillies vs Mets. I don’t have the time or patience so I turned him down.
There are ways to show that you are different without making it look like you’re better than everyone else. You can respect others, and tell them that my religion doesn’t allow certain things. I would certainly not do it in a way that makes it look like you’re being rude.
I would advise you to look into Sefer Mekadshei Shemecha, by Rabbi Shraga Freedman, available through Feldheim. I personally know the author. He researched the topic of Kiddush Hashem for 10 years and he has haskamos from Rabbis Shmuel Kamenetzky Shlita, Yitzchak Sheiner Shlita and others. This sefer talks all about the importance of making a kiddush Hashem and how to do it.
old man +1
Saying that one shouldnt go to a sports game because of shemiras einayim or other religious reasons is fine by me as long as it isn’t being imposed. However there are many rebbeim who engage in a great degree in sophistry in this area. Telling kids or even adults that playing or watching sports isn’t enjoyable is counterproductive as even a 7 year old can see that isn’t true. I remember a rebbi lambasting sports as a kid (i believe I was in 1st grade at the time). he said that he could invent a game in which he threw papers in a garbage can. Even at the time I realized that was faulty logic and most other kids would be able to intuitively realize that too.
As far as chukas hagoyim goes we have to be very careful not to overstate what is wrong with doing something and what is halacha and what is chumra. Stating that chumra is halacha will cause people to be derelict in halacha for many reasons. It is a dangerous direction to go in. To be a rebbi rav or r”y you have to have seichel. There is also a question of gezeira sheain hatzibur yachol laamod bah. You have to allow some outlets and places for families to go to. There is a vast difference between what people can/should do on a personal level depending on where they are at and what rabbonim should be lecturing or enforcing at a communal level.
Can you go to the Mall and shop at Macy’s or must you shop on 13th Ave in BP?
Does it mean if you can ride the Subway?? Goyim ride the Subway
See my previous post about what my rebbe said, “At the same time, you have to live. You have to be able to live and enjoy life.”
To live- if you need to go to macy’s then go.
I suggested museums or zoos because it’s you can walk around and look and see things. If you see something not tznius you can walk away and go somewhere else. You’re not confined to one space, as opposed to a baseball game, which you are.
Personally, I am shocked at people’s posts on here. If a rebbe said something, fine you may not agree with it, but there are ways how to say that you don’t agree. These rebbeim (R’ Shlomo Heiman zatzal etc.) are people that know what they’re talking about. Give them some respect. Say it in a way that’s respectful.
chukas akum as defined by the maharik and the rema includes things that are not done for any positive purpose. See Rav Moshe ZT”L’s famous teshuvos in regards to Thanksgiving. Going to a mall for the purpose of buying something or riding the train to work would not be included. There seems to be a machlokes whether if Jews have their own purpose to those activities (ie going on a family outing) which differs from the purpose of the goyim makes it mutar. I am not that knowledgeable in this area and I am sure there are others here who could better answer this question with specific mareh mkomos.
Actually you will find some who are against going to the Mall or going to Macy’s.
I saw a Pashkavil asking people not to go to Macy’s to shop
I think it is obvious on a fundamental level following professional sports is inane. I love baseball, and to a lesser degree other sports, but I acknowledge that my enjoyment and interest in these sports is compeletely irrational. On the other hand I don’t think sports are harmful in any way and as entertainment goes they are among the best. (definitely better than 95% of video games and movies).
I hope one day to be on a level where every action I take is l’shem shomayim and sports will be of no interest to me, but I am very far from that point and sports are way down on the list in terms of what I need to work on.
For someone who has never followed sports and first comes across the phenomenon in adulthood, it would be surprising if they didn’t mock it. I don’t think it is so terrible for a Rebbe or a Rav to occasionally remind his flock that professional sports are hevel, but without declaring them ossur or denigrating his students for enjoying them.
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