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because for a boy it is a huge milestone in the visible conduct of his life
for a girl it is more of an invisible technical milestone
Mod-80, for a boy its more visible in terms of participating in a minyan and such. Thats why it should be a shul focused celebration, not a hall celebration. There is no need to have a fancy hall celebration for a bar mitzvah and THAT sends the wrong message IMO.
i agree
🙂
SJS, it’s exactly as Mod-80 said.
Girls and boys ARE different, period.
SJS, so for a big bas mitzvah bash do you think girls would want to become boys? Well if they don’t and they won’t act like boys nor perform religious obligations like the boys do, then they will not have a big celebration as well (nebach, nebach, poor girls , my heart bleeds for them, lol). It’s a package deal.
Its not about becoming boys – I think boys would not want to be girls and girls would not want to be boys if they really understood what it meant to each of them.
It about making a statement to girls that their coming of age isn’t significant when you throw a big bash for the boys that is not connected to the mitzvah. Their coming of age is just as significant as boys, but they have different obligations.
If you are going to throw a large party for a boy, especially when its not relating to the mitzvah you ARE sending the message to her that she is less significant.
The SJS, the FACT is, that boys’ lifestyles change when they turn 13 and the reason for the bar mitzvah celebration is that they should be excited for those changes.
Girls lifestyles do NOT change. It is an INNER change, a change in their penimius and girls do understand that when their upbringing is not focused so much on what each gender gets or doesn’t get. In my community, it is totaly not an issue, and I think in most communities where there is an acceptance of each of our different roles girls don’t even think twice about this.
I’m sorry if I’m being blunt, but thinking in terms of if boys get this then girls have to as well, if boys can do this then girls can as well, leads us down the path of women Rabbas.
Girls and boys are different, the way they come of age is different, what their halachic obligations are is different, and the way we go about these changes is different.
Girls, in communities where boys bar mitzvas are celebrated and not the girls bas mitzvas DO NOT feel less significent nor do they feel their role is of less importance in any way, just because boys have their bar mitzva and the girls don’t have big deal made of their bas mitzvas.
Philosopher, I beg to differ. The main thing that changes with boys is their requirement to daven shacharis with tefillin, and that they may be counted in a minyan. The boys AND the girls, are EQUALLY chayavim in fulfilling those mitzvos that are incumbent upon them. It matters not that boys have mitzvos that girls do not. Girls also have mitzvos that BOYS usually do not.
It IS a momentous occasion when a girl at 12 years and one day (a full year before her male counterpart), is required to fulfill the mitzvos. And that day SHOULD be marked in some way. Not as a seudas mitzvah(unless her father decides to make a siyum that day), because their is no seudas mitzvah for this occasion otherwise, but a simple birthday party can be made for her family and/or classmates. There is no issur in that. The issur is in people equating the bar and bas mitzvahs in such a way as to actually teach a girl the Torah laining (or haftarah)or even the brochos for an aliyah and call her up to the Torah, which of course is not halachically acceptable.
I see absolutely no halachic reason not to make a girl feel special at the time she takes the ol malchus Shamayim on herself. And it is a wonderful opportunity for her to give a D’var Torah and show that those first 6 years in yeshivah have been productive. What I DO object to, is the oneupsmanship some people feel they need to display. Who has the better Viennese Table?
It is especially NICE to see the Bas Mitzvah girls take on a chessed project to make the occasion really special.
In response to Philosopher above:
“From dressing like adults in suit and hat, to putting on teffilin, making sure to daven with a minyan, expecting them to act with more maturity…”
Acting with more maturity is equally on boys and girls.
Tefilin and Minyan are my categoy b) above.
Dressing like adults in suit and tie has to be a new category d).
We have entire communities where weekday wearing of suit / tie is reserved for real Klei Kodesh.
oomis, while girls and boys are equally chiuvim in fullfiling the the mitzvos. girls DO NOT do ONE SINGLE mitzva more after they turn 12. Boys ARE mchiuv to perform numerous new mitzvos, from one day to the next.
About making something nice for the girls when they turn bas mitzvah, I agree with you. You may have missed my last post regarding msking that day special for her.
Thats why it should be a shul focused celebration, not a hall celebration.
SJS,Why is a wedding different? There is no need for a hall there either.
There is no need to have a fancy hall celebration for a bar mitzvah and THAT sends the wrong message IMO.
Who said it needs to be a fancy hall celebration?
Josh, dark suits today is an adopted frum levush as Jews have adopted there own levushim throughout centuries to distinguish themselves from the goyim. Let’s not go into whether you have to do that or not. The point is that those boys who do wear these suits and hats should be proud about it.
You know what, maybe with a change of levush comes expectation of more maturity and responsibilty which could very well be that those who do dress casually without a suit and hat don’t feel the change.
In any case, I think it’s important to let the boys know that the fact they are are going to HAVE to fulfill all the mitzvos that they will do is cause for celebration.
About bas mitzvas, okay, so maybe it’s NOT ONLY because of girls not performing more new mitzvos from one day to the next. But it is also not tzniusdig that girls should be focus and center of attention. I understand that Wolf brought a wedding celebration as an example against this reasoning. However, a bas mitzva is completely different than a wedding. Obviously, a bas mitzva girl will not be on the other side of the mechitza as her male guests would be by her chasunah. By a chasuna men and boys are busy being mesamiach chusan (hopefully), not her.
Anyway, the bottom line is, my husband and I will do as our minhug is (and I think a bar mitzva was a minhug in ALL of klal Yisroel, except today where it might become extinct in certain communities because “what’s the point” ) and make beautiful bar mitzvahs for my sons, iy”H. By beautiful I don’t mean lavish or showy, but rather a modest SIMCHA, an expression of thanks to the RS”O and excitement of our sons “coming of age”. And no our girls will not be jealous. They have no such hasugos of such “equality”. They will be excited as well for this SIMCHA.
philosopher,
You are absolutely wrong about girls not doing extra mitzvot once they turn 12. On that day girls become chayev in everything from eating matzah and retelling the story of the Exodus on Pesach (not to mention maror, Hallel, and four cups of wine), to making kiddush on Shabat and Yom Tov, to birkat hamazon, to hearing the Megillah, to lighting Shabat, Yom Tov, and Chanukah candles, to taking Challah, to prayer. The number of Torah mitzvot for which men are chayev and women are patur is quite small.
Philosopher, the minute you move the Bar Mitzvah away from a shul setting, you are saying “This is not only about the mitzvah.” The symbol of Bar Mitzvah is laining, something that happens in a shul setting.
A wedding can be anywhere – there is no typical location for a wedding (at least, of real significance). So you need a location. And you need a seudah. And you need to be sameach chatan vkallah. Plenty of good reasons to have it in a hall where your family and friends can join you in this mitzvah. Please tell me how that compares to a Bar Mitzvah.
If you want to play the tznius aspect, then any event which focuses on women (including graduations) would be banned.
And you can’t control your daughters feelings. You may try to raise them a certain way and they may be jealous anyway. I didn’t grow up with brothers, so it didn’t really affect me.
There is a huge qualitative difference doing a Mitzvah that you are actually obligated to do vs. doing the same Mitzvah when you are really exempt. Ask any true convert.
The number of Torah mitzvot for which men are chayev and women are patur is quite small. “
And the reasons for that are a) they have other chiyuvim that take precedence over time-bound positive commandments and b)l’chatchilah women need fewer mitzvos, because they are already in a spiritual state where they do not NEED those mitzvos (like davening in a minyan every day, wearing tefillin, etc)
in order to elevate themselves. They are already on a high madreiga, one that boys need to attain through the fulfillment of their additional mitzvos. Or so I was told.
oomis, while girls and boys are equally chiuvim in fullfiling the the mitzvos. girls DO NOT do ONE SINGLE mitzva more after they turn 12. “
That is not really true. They go to the Mikvah when they get married. They light candles for Shabbos, they make a brocha on hafrashas challah (I might be wrong, granted, but are ketanos allowed to make that brocha?), they can in some circumstances and according to some poskim, constitute a mezumenes for bensching,when three girls over bas mitzvah age eat a seudah together, and they MUST fast. I think I have listed more than one mitzvah.
max well,
There are other poskim out there.
One quick question, do you follow EVERYTHING R’ Moshe writes?
I don’t know about anyone else here, but I don’t pasken halacha. I don’t look for heterim. I ask my Rav. As to if he shops around? I don’t think so, but I haven’t ask him how he comes to his conclusions.
I think its pretty significant for a girl that at her Bat Mitzvah her father can no longer sell her into slavery or marry her off without her consent.
Max Well,
You are wrong about candlelighting; everyone (male or female) is obligated in candlelighting starting at bar or bat mitzvah. The custon is that for a young man or women, his/her mother fulfils his/her obligation, but if a yeshiva boy does not have someone else to light for him, he has failed to fulfill a positive commandment. Ditto for unmarried women.
And it is no disrespect to Rav Moshe z’tz’l to follow one of the great poskim I mentioned earlier who permitted a bat mitzvah service. My own rav follows Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l on all issues on which he has a mesorah from The Rav.
When my daughter turned 12 – she herself realilzed that now she is Mechuyav in mitzvos and made sure to be more careful.
She now makes sure to daven each day (hasn’t missed one yet), is more careful in her tzniyus (gave up bobby socks) and is in general more in tune with her obligations. She is also trying to be more stringent in Kibud Av V’Aim and Bain Adam L’Chaveiro. She constantly tells me ‘now that I am Bas Mitzva’ I have to do this. My husband is a firm believer in not pushing the kids to do things until they are ready – and he is 100% right. Some children need more time to mature and understand the mitzvos. But once she hit 12 – she was mature enough to take on more obligations B”H. We made a Bas Mitzva in her school with the only men in attendance her father and grandfather (no brothers were allowed as per school rules). Her class and girl relatives attended. She gave a D’Var Torah and spoke about her namesake and her obligations. There was dancing, great food, and a lot of healthy fun. It was truly a beautful milestone in her life.
I think its pretty significant for a girl that at her Bat Mitzvah her father can no longer sell her into slavery or marry her off without her consent.
Love the post, but to be factual, he can marry her off until she is 12.5.
Well said. Your own Rav has the right to Pasken to whom his Da’as is Note.
EDITED
OK GAW, so big party for girls at 12.5! (I forgot about that – is slavery at 12 or 12.5?)
Slavery is 12, assuming she is a Gadol M’Deoraissa at that point (or she can still be sold).
In reality, we should not be making any celebrations for anyone until they are a Vadai Gadol (or gedolah), anyway.
“oomis, mikvah and candles become effective for her with marriage, not with bas mitzvah”
The statement made was that girls do not do one single mitzvah more after they turn 12. That statement is erroneous, as I pointed out the muiztvos they are obligated in. And I am sure you would agree that in most cases, this is after they turn 12, though it may be several more years down the line.
What kind of midgets are we to argue with Reb Moshe’s psak din, or to even suddenly shop around for another psak when we don’t like what Reb Moshe said.
What kind of midgets are we to argue with Reb Moshe’s psak din, or to even suddenly shop around for another psak when we don’t like what Reb Moshe said.
You’re right. Why even have a local rav to whom one should ask questions? After all, if he rules like R. Moshe, then we can just look it up ourselves. And if he disagrees, well then he’s a midget not worthy of being asked a shaila…
The Wolf
Situations change from generation to generation and the leaders of that generation need to be consulted.
The first two letter from Rav Moshe in this thread were from a time where he saw Bar Mitzvahs as practiced here in the US as being completely barren of anything uplifting for the boy.
Fortunately this is not always the case now.
While it is true that all of us who comment here are midgets compared to Rav Moshe z’tz’l, there were those who were not who did indeed argue with him during his life. Rav Henkin z’tz’l disagreed with him regarding the Manhattan eruv, chalav stam milk, the validity of the sale of chametz by non-observant Jewish merchants who continued to do business in chametz on Pesach, and allowing a woman married in a non-halachic service to get married without a get. Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l disagreed with him regarding brushing teeth on Shabat, the permissibility of a wedding on the night of 17 Tammuz, and the desirability of university education. Rav Waldenberg z’tz’l disagreed with him on the permissibility of many abortions, and the permissibility of cosmetic surgery. None of these are midgets; indeed they were gedolim of similar stature to Rav Moshe z’tz’l.
Wolf wrote – “You’re right. Why even have a local rav to whom one should ask questions? After all, if he rules like R. Moshe, then we can just look it up ourselves. And if he disagrees, well then he’s a midget not worthy of being asked a shaila…”
It depends on who your local rav is and who is asking the question. In many shuls, the average member doesn’t know Shulchan Aruch by heart, and therefore doesn’t know Tshuvos of Reb Moshe, or Tshuvos of Reb Shlomo Zalman or Rev Elyashiv or even Rav Vozner. General speaking if they do, they are probably more capable then the majority of local ravs.
There have been some references made in this thread to ~znius” at a wedding, quoting sukkah 49B. May I just point out that, if you check the actual gemoro and rashi, it does not mean at all that a wedding has to be made quietly- quite the contrary , the gemoro brackets it with “halvoyas hames”- a funeral, and it is clear that at a funeral, the more people the better.And so is this the case with a wedding too- the more the better- as it is a big mitzvah. what the gemoro means-check rashi -is that you should not conduct yourself “bekalus rosh” with licentiousness and loose behavior.It has precious little to do with the actual size of the mesamchim.
May i also dispute the “philosopher’s” note that “by a chasunoh boys and men are busy mesamech the chusan-NOT HER” (emphasis mine). check the gemoro in kesubos and the halacha. it surely is a mitzvah to be mesameach the kallah-where do you think the mitzvah tanz comes from?
rob, that gmora was brought by someone trying to drey a kup that your supposed to be more tznius by a chasuna than a bas mitzva.
Btw you promised earlier to quote additional Igros Moshe’s on bas mitzva ceremonies.
Helpful
Don’t put words in my mouth.
All I said is that a public ceremony can be done with Tznius.
But I do admit it is a good debating tactic, to pretend I said something and try to make me defend it.
Helpful said:
you’re supposed to be more tznius by a chasuna than a bas mitzva.
This is not true. After all, we just had a number of posts regarding how Rav Moshe held that Bas Mitzvos should not be held in public, if they are held at all. A Chassuna, though it should be with “Tznius”, should be public.
According to some there is only one life cycle event that a woman is allowed to be the center of attention:
The Levayah (funeral)
how do you have the chutzpa to accuse reb moshe, or his psak, like that?!
Reb Moshe was trying to end both Bar and Bat Mitzvas, he was not trying to “write” the Kallah out of the wedding like some right wingers in this coffee room are.
reb moshe specifically wrote he is NOT trying to stop bar mitzvos ceremonies, only to stop bas mitzvos ceremonies.
From the second Igros Moshe at the top of this thread:
“If I had the ability, in our country I would do away with the bar mitzvah celebration for boys, for it is well known that this celebration never brought any person closer to Torah and mitzvah, not even the bar mitzvah boy, and not even for a brief moment.”
did you miss the very next sentence?:
“Nevertheless, what is already practiced here, and also comes from a mitzvah source, is difficult to do away with.”
Josh31 – “According to some there is only one life cycle event that a woman is allowed to be the center of attention:
The Levayah (funeral)” “Reb Moshe was trying to end both Bar and Bat Mitzvas, he was not trying to “write” the Kallah out of the wedding like some right wingers in this coffee room are. “
Funny, I don’t recall seeing any comments saying these things. Would you mind pointing them out?
Going back a little bit:
SJSinNYC – “Its not about becoming boys – I think boys would not want to be girls and girls would not want to be boys if they really understood what it meant to each of them.
It about making a statement to girls that their coming of age isn’t significant when you throw a big bash for the boys that is not connected to the mitzvah. Their coming of age is just as significant as boys, but they have different obligations.
If you are going to throw a large party for a boy, especially when its not relating to the mitzvah you ARE sending the message to her that she is less significant. “
As you pointed out in the first paragraph of your comment, boys and girls are very different. Therefore, we cannot and should not try to make them believe that they are the same. Boys usually have to get up earlier in the morning then girls do, come home later, and have less vacation time. Does this “send them the message” that they are being treated unfairly, and that the girls have an easier life? Perhaps. But if we teach our children (as we should) that boys and girls are different, and that each one has their unique benefits, we would be much more successful than if we try to undo every “message” that each difference sends.
Josh31
Conqueror of Jericho (and 30 other cities)
According to some there is only one life cycle event that a woman is allowed to be the center of attention:
The Levayah (funeral)
…and even then, she is not seen
helpful- indeed, I said much earlier that there were FOUR teshuvos by R’Moshe where he discusses Bat mitzvos and so there are. Look in the ~Jad Moshe” ,an index for the teshuvos, and you will find the other one. I do not have the teshuvos at hand but I checked it over shabbos and there clearly are four teshuvos. The reason this is important is that in that last teshuvo(unmentioned in this thread) ,written in Tof Shin Jud Tet- 1959, I think R’Moshe says that you can have a kiddush for the bas mitzvah in the shul if this is the minhag and the girl can speak at the kiddush.I’ll be happy to double check the source again and tell you which teshuvo it is if I am quoting correctly.
as far as the gemoro in sukkos, I just indicated that the idea of “znius” in its acceptable sense- meaning modest and small- does not apply to chasunos as the meaning of “znius” in that gemoro means something else totally.
Iggros Moshe OHC 4:36.
A Bas Mitzva is not a Seudas Mitzva, and therefore should not be celebrated is Shul, but it is a Simcha, and a kiddush SHOULD be made, and if the girl wishes to speak, she may do so, but not from the pulpit.
Maxwell took the last paragraph of the Teshuva while ignoring the first two paragraphs. The last paragraph is talking about making a seudah like one might do for a boy (which Rav Moshe is also against).
Did you see it inside or did you just quote someone else?
“According to some there is only one life cycle event that a woman is allowed to be the center of attention:
The Levayah (funeral) “
Squeak, somehow I feel that in giving birth she is ALSO going to be the center of attentiion – at least until the baby comes out.
Squeak, somehow I feel that in giving birth she is ALSO going to be the center of attentiion – at least until the baby comes out.
…and even then, she is not seen
“even then, she is not seen “
My wife has delivered dozens of babies and reports that there are few things quite so immodest as giving birth.
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