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SJS, Everything in life is petty but we must understand that materialism, if used the right way can have very powerfull effects and just the opposite, if used the wrong way will have negative effects. Let’s face it, 13 year old boys will not appreciate the mitzva to the fullest extent that even adults have trouble appreciating.
I’m not saying an axtravant, money wasting affair will have the right hoshpaoh. That focuses too much on the materialistic part. However, it is vital to show the bar mitzva boys what a special occasion this is.
If you go on vacation and spend money, buy your kids electronic toys etc., is this not fleeting? Even a nice house, while we look at it as it’s lasting, in reality it is not. Time passes by. We don’t live forever bound to our materialism whether it’s a house or car.
The feeling that you put into your kids by marking this occasion to the best of your ability is lasting. You are showing that this is important to you.
Let me ask you, will you make their weddings in shull too? You can make the chuppah outside. Not too many people need to come to the sheva brochos after the wedding, so how about inviting ten couples and doing it in your house? A wedding is certainly fleeting as well.
The bottom line is that no, special occasions don’t need to be big and ostentatious. In fact this downplays the holiness of such occasions as everyone is focused on shtissim. But still, we must try our best to make our simchos “real special occasions” by marking them ACCORDING TO OUR LIFESTYLE (that we can really afford to live – not on credit cards or charity), bar mitzvos included.
OK Philosopher, I hear what you are saying. I need to think on whether or not I agree.
We are redoing our kitchen soon. My plan is to do it with solid wood cabinets, granite counters, 2 dishwashers etc. We can afford to do it and it will be a major quality of life change for us. Every day I spend about 30-45 minutes doing dishes (we don’t use disposable much). Our kitchen is hard to cook in, hard to keep kosher in and really dangerous. I want to get granite so my sister will be willing to join us on Pesach (they don’t kasher laminate). Its a worthwhile investment to me because day in and day out the kitchen will make a major change.
Upgrading a Bar Mitzvah to having a fancy feast? Fleeting. As in, right then.
Its important to stress the importance of the Bar Mitzvah (and even Bat Mitzvah) to your kids properly. Its a coming of age event for all kids – whether or not you celebrate it. The point is that as parents you have to teach your kids what that birthday means, what it means practically, spiritually etc.
tomim tihye
Member
Squeak, Viennese tables are so outdated- they’re loaded with trans-fat, high fructose corn syrup, and empty calories.
I don’t doubt that mine is past its prime, but corn syrup and empty calories? That’s a surprise. I thought wood was a natural composite (that’s for SJS 🙂 of cellulose.
When MY husband makes a siyum, we have a Sushi Bar (just without the sushi).
So you have a bar? I prefer a table. I find that it is nicer for my siyyum participants to sit so we are all facing each other rather than sitting in a long row. But that’s just personal preference, to each his own 🙂
SJS, sorry in my previous post I used a patroninzing tone that I hate when others use for me.
Sorry about that.
But you get my drift. I think that celebrating an occasion does give kids a feeling of how important the occasion is.
Its important to stress the importance of the Bar Mitzvah (and even Bat Mitzvah) to your kids properly. Its a coming of age event for all kids – whether or not you celebrate it.
Whether or not you think it’s important, your kids will not get that, even if you explain the concept till your blue in your face. You need to prove to your kids that it’s important to you.
If all they see that you are spending money for a nice kitchen (hatzlocha with the remodeling and use it gezunterheit), vacations, etc. they’ll assume that that is what’s important. The bar mitzvah will be lip service. With kids (and ourselves), it’s not about the talking and explaining. It’s about the action.
There are 2 type’s of families that make Bar mitzvah celbration’s, whether they be ostentatios or even “just a shabbos kiddush”. The one’s that can afford the expense and the one’s that can not afford the expense.
As long as making a Bar mitzvah celebration is very popular and the norm, the families that can not afford the expense have a severe problem with each time their boy hits 13. They can not afford to make anything. In many cases they can’t afford basic neccesities in their life as it is. The burdon to keep up with the rest of the world is devastating. They can’t not make anything because they as it is, have issues that they aren’t able to provide well enough for their failies like they see others do. for them to take the first stand and not make any celebration at all is asking too much from already broken down financially strapped parents / Almonos or out of work fathers’. The one’s that have to make the first stand against all Bar mitzvah celebrations are the well to do families that can afford all the basic expenses in life and choose to not spend money on Bar Mitzvah celebrations. When a well to do family spends money on even just a shabbos kiddush, they are guilty of perpetuating a tremendous amount of pressure on all of the poorer familes in our khal. Who should be bold and couragous enough to stand up and say, I will be the first (or the 2nd or 3rd)family in town who will not make a Bar Mitzvah celebration? The poor? That’s not fair and it wouldn’t work to extend over to the richer families anyways.
I can easily afford to make a very extravagant affair for my children by the way and chose to not make even a shabbos kiddush for my 13 year old. I explained to him my thoughts and asked him his opinion on the matter. I was not surprised to hear him gladly say he wasn’t interested in keeping up with anyone else or being part of a burdon on people who couldn’t afford to keep up with us. He’s a great kid and I believe the experience (or lack of celebration experience rather) helped mold him into being a much more mature and sensitive individual. I never once saw his not having any celebration hurt his yiddishkeit or ahavas Yisroel in any way at all. He’s 15 now and everyone in klal Yisroel should have a boy with such good middos like him.
good middos doesn’t grow on tree’s though. you have to teach it to your children. No child learnt good middos because he had an expensive affair in his honor or a shabbos afternoon kiddush in shul where everyone fresses away on cholent and kugel. Middos don’t come from fressing bouts.
philosopher, I didn’t catch that tone, so its fine 🙂
I’m not sure I agree with you. After all, for a bar mitzvah, you get a new pair of tefillin! That’s uber expensive. And a kiddush in shul (at least our shul – there are a lot of people) is not cheap.
My preference is to take the family to Israel and celebrate there. I think there is something truly meaningful about celebrating your acceptance of mitzvos in Israel. That isn’t cheap either.
Also, I don’t think kids have a true concept of money. They have a concept of fancy and flashy vs plain and simple. I think my mother instilled proper values in me from the time I was little and it stuck. (My bat mitzvah was lavish but that’s really for a different reason)
True, if you spend lavishly on everything else and serve 2 crackers and a piece of herring at shul for a bar mitzvah, it sends mixed messages. But if you take family vacations for the purpose of uniting the family and express that to your kids all along and then make them a nice, simple Bar Mitzvah, they will understand.
We had a situation in our shul where there was a family who once “had” and at the time of their son’s upcoming Bar Mitzvah no longer did. They planned a small vochedik affair bo b’yom but needed to do something on Shabbos. Even though many of us were not invited to the affair, we quietly behind the scenes put together the Shabbos kiddush and came to shul like inivted and honored guests to hear this boy lain and then partake in the kiddush. The boy had no knowledge that the parents did not do this for him.
2morecents, may I assume you son’s chasunah will resemble his bar mitzva?
One should not assume that just because not marking the occasion worked for one kid it will work for others.
It’s not about fressing or lavish simchos. It’s not about keeping up with the Cohen’s. It’s about showing how important this occasion is for a boy, it’s marking it with simcha. MOST kids, if their parents spend money for other inconsequential things like camp and not on a bar mitzvah celebration, will get not get the simcha and that special feeling of being able to perform all the mitzvos that grownup men do.
I believe one spends where their priorities are. Everything else is lip service.
2morecents:
When a well to do family spends money on even just a shabbos kiddush, they are guilty of perpetuating a tremendous amount of pressure on all of the poorer familes in our khal.
What you really mean to say is:
When a well to do, or even poor family who has budgeted somewhat and has some savings, spends money on even just a shabbos kiddush, they are placing a tremendous amount of pressure on all of the familes that did not plan, or plans fell through, and feel the need to keep up with the Cohens’ in our khal.
That is a valid point.
Your post references a number of times “the need of others to keep up” with you. Do you consider that a Chisaron of yours or of theirs? Do your feelings extend to other areas as well, such as feeling the need to have the smallest home or the shabbiest clothes?
If you feel guilty for having, I hear Mod80 is collecting. Just send him your Paypal via E-mail. 🙂
SJS, celebrating that event in Israel is showing that it’s a special occasion.
Also, I don’t think kids have a true concept of money. They have a concept of fancy and flashy vs plain and simple.
True it’s not davka about how much one is spending. But I think it’s an important part of chinuch to make a (relatively) big matzav of important occasions and issues.
You don’t have to take the entire bar mitzva party on a cruise. That’s flashy (to say the least) and sends the wrong message.
But I believe one should mark these occasions with the budget one spends on important things so that kids SEE that it is important.
by the way, for some reason, i never got a penny.
a bunch of misers in the cr apparently
clearheaded:
Working with the same logic, it is not how much you spend on the milestone, but the relative importance you place on it (which includes treating it respectfully).
No one (except maybe two+cent) would consider having water for a Siyum Mesechta, one should have a Chashuv Seuda. Having water for a siyum shows your disdain for the accomplishment, and a similar concept applies to other accomplishments (such as becoming a “Bar” Chiyuva), or starting a bayis Ne’eman B’Yisroel (excluding the simchas Chatan V’Kallah aspect).
a bunch of misers in the cr apparently
🙂
The Wolf
Mod-80 I’m saving up for my son’s Bar Mitzva, so the only thing I can spare you is some change.
gavra, very well said.
80-
That’s because your email account as given is not registered with Paypal.
sure, its not registered NOW
let it not be said that everyone in the cr is a miser
i just got my first payment, from……….
The Wolf
gavra, while it’s true that it’s not how much parents spend for a bar mitzvah that’s important, if they spend a lot on vacation, camp, etc. and almost nothing on a bar mitzvah celebration then it doesn’t show how important such an occasion is to them.
One summer at a good sleep away camp can accomplish more in terms of Chinuch (education) than a Bar Mitzvah in many cases.
Ask the boy.
I question the practice of fathers (who are not practicing Klei Kodesh) using their Rabbinic title in the invitations.
On one hand it may be improper display of frumkeit.
On the other hand the knowledge that one will get opportunities later in life to display the title, may be needed to spur one along in his own learning.
Perhaps the title will spur the son in his learning?
One famous righteous convert in the time of Hillel was initially spurred on to convert and learn by the prospect (in his mind) of becoming the high Priest.
Squeak, my bar-shaped table is presumably of the same origins as sushi.
Josh, the point is not about asking the kids what they want. It’s about SHOWING them what’s really important in life. Granted the bar mitzvah is only one night, while camp is for a few weeks. But still, my opinion is that a special celebration (relatively speaking, to each his own) at a time when a boy starts having a chiuv to perform the mitzvos, really shows the kids where our priorities are.
Again, it’s not how much one spends, but one spends where they feel it’s important.
“starts having a chiuv to perform the mitzvos”
That is equally true for girls.
The mitzvos might be different and the triggering age is different, but the chiuv (obligation) is the same.
For many girls the Bat or Bas Mitzvah if done correctly can be a strong boost start for a lifetime of Torah and Mitzvos.
We live in a new generation and each family with a girl approaching age 12 needs to get advise from their own local Rabbi.
While Rav Moshe did oppose Bat Mitzvah ceremonies, among those who supported some kind of Bat Mitzvah ceremony were Rabbi Yakov Ettlinger, the Ben Ish Chai, Rabbi Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, and Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef. Rav Weinberg’s rulings have become normative in the Modern Orthodox world because they were supported by Rov Soloveitchik, and Rav Yosef’s rulings are of course normative in the Sefardic world. Therefore one should not criticize those who hold a Bat Mitzvah for their daughter when they live in a community that accepts them.
To me, it seems a bit paradoxical to celebrate mitzvas tznius with a public ceremony. Can you please explain?
tomim tihye
Member
Squeak, my bar-shaped table is presumably of the same origins as sushi
From the ocean? You actually have a table made out of seaweed?
To me, it seems a bit paradoxical to celebrate mitzvas tznius with a public ceremony. Can you please explain?
You could make the same argument, I suppose, about a wedding. There’s no reason the bride has to dress up in a fancy distinctive gown and be the center of attention. In fact, she doesn’t even have to be there at all. A kiddushin via a shliach is 100% kosher.
The Wolf
im not so sure erusin can be done through schlichus though.
you seem to have a good point though, tzoruch iyun
im not so sure erusin can be done through schlichus though.
It absolutely can. Perhaps you’re thinking of n’suin?
That can be accomplished by just having two eidim watch him picking up the girl from her father’s house and talking her to his house.
The Wolf
thank you
yes i meant nesuin of course
that’s a Gemorrah, do we paskin like that today?
also i dont recall that he has to talk with her all the way to his house, i thought taking her was sufficient. do you have a source?
also i dont recall that he has to talk with her all the way to his house, i thought taking her was sufficient. do you have a source?
No, and perhaps you’re right. The point, nonetheless, is that n’suin, whatever the technical details, can be done with a minimum of two eidim. Not everyone has to see n’suin for it to be 100% valid. It could be done in private after the wedding (which the bride need not attend).
The Wolf
(Note: Just to make clear — I’m NOT advocating this. I don’t know of anyone who advocates not having the bride at the wedding. No one to my knowledge, no matter how “frum” does this. The point I’m making is that the idea of Tznius does NOT trump all public appearances. Just as it can be perfectly valid for a bride to be at a wedding, so too can a girl be at other functions that are valid. *If* you posit a bas mitzvah to be a valid function, there is no problem with her being there and it’s not a “violation” of the concept of tznius, anymore than a bride being in a distinctive gown and the center of attention at a wedding.)
as i said you made a good point nevertheless as far a bas mitzvah, as far as im concerned, tzaruch iyun
the “talking” thing was a joke. you made a typo and wrote talking instead of taking.
the “talking” thing was a joke. you made a typo and wrote talking instead of taking.
Oh. I completely missed that.
The Wolf
Now waht is the reason for the Bar Mitzvah in the first place?
a) For the family to show off its wealth, social standing and frumkeit? From some of Rav Moshe’s writings brought down in this this thread it appears that here in the USA that has become a reality in too many cases.
Lets try to be more positive:
b) To inaugurate the boy into active participation in Tefilah B’Tzibur. He can now read the Torah, lead services and count towards the quorum of 10 needed. This is like a regular Kohain on his first day of Avodah in the Beit HaMikdash.
With b) Bar but not Bat Mitzvahs would be advisable.
However the term Bar Mitzvah implies what Philosopher above stated: “starts having a chiuv to perform the mitzvos”. Which becomes c).
My initial post was based on either a) or b) being the case.
However, the term Bar Mitzvah implies much more than one group of Mitzvos no matter how important they are.
Based upon c) Bat or Bas Mitzvas should also be done.
How about this for a Bat Mitzvah celebration:
Hold it the first Friday night after the girl turns Bat Mitzvah. Have women in the community (and only women) stand around and say “amein” as the Bat Mitzvah girl lights candles in her home as a chiyuv for the first time, and follow it with a festive women-only meal where the Bat Mitzvah girl makes kiddush and motzi, offers divrei Torah on the parsha, and leads the zimun?
To me, it seems a bit paradoxical to celebrate mitzvas tznius with a public ceremony. Can you please explain?
Actually, the mitzva that the gemorah says requires Tznius is a wedding (once again, Succah 49b).
also i dont recall that he has to talk with her all the way to his house, i thought taking her was sufficient. do you have a source?
The husband can have his Sheliach accept the wife from the father before two Eidim. The Gemorah talks about “Masar Ha’Av Lesheluchei Ha’Baal” in Nedarim (10th Perek, as well as other locations in Kesubos IIRC).
“From the ocean? You actually have a table made out of seaweed?”
Squeak, does that seem fishy to you? OK, it’s made out of rice.
Alternatively, you can replace the word origins with nationality.
gavra that was a joke based on wolfs typo of talk rather than take
The basis for celebrating a wedding has, in my understanding, little to do with the mitzva of tznius. The same is not true regarding the celebration of a bas mitzva.
“Actually, the mitzva that the gemorah says requires Tznius is a wedding (once again, Succah 49b).”
This Gemorah seems to confirm that tznius is not inherent in the mitzva of marrying, only that getting married must be done with tznius.
The focus of a chasunah is the man’s obligation to marry; the focus of a bas mitzva is the girl’s obligation to perform her mitzvos, of which tznius is the core.
Most of the Bat Mitzvah’s I’ve attended in the last 10-15 years have been all girls and women. No men allowed.
SJSinNYC
Member
Most of the Bat Mitzvah’s I’ve attended in the last 10-15 years have been all girls and women. No men allowed.
And I have the exact opposite experience. Every single Bat Mitzvah that I attended (ever) had both men and women.
the focus of a bas mitzva is the girl’s obligation to perform her mitzvos, of which tznius is the core.
Which of the 613 is Tznius?
Groan squeak, groan.
And I have the exact opposite experience. Every single Bat Mitzvah that I attended (ever) had both men and women.
And I suppose that I’m in the middle. I’ve been to Bat-Mitzvahs where both were admitted (including my daughter’s) and my wife and daughter have been to those that were “women only.”
The Wolf
first of all, doesnt R moshe zatzal write in the intro, not to translate his teshuvos since they are written specificaly in a certain way, a translater is sometimes more of an author than the writer.also i have a friend who felt this was a problem especialy by the less frum so she made a website called banglegirl.com which helps bas mitzvah girls find meaning through diffrent mitvah projects, tell peaple about it .
Josh31, reason “a” is for adult babies(the parents)only.
Reason “b” is a beautiful reason to show our excitement over this mitzva.
Here’s my reasoning for reason “c”: Boys entire LIFESTYLES change at age 13. Their chiuv to perform mitzvos makes their lives more demanding. From dressing like adults in suit and hat, to putting on teffilin, making sure to daven with a minyan, expecting them to act with more maturity… There’s a lot more that’s expected from a bar mitzvah boy (and older) than from a bas mitzvah girl regarding the performance of mitzvos.
A girl doesn’t cover her hair at that age, isn’t required to perform mitzvos shehazmon grama, her lifestyle doesn’t change. And because of the demands that are placed on a bar mitzva boy from one day to the next, we make it exciting and special. We make him have enthusiasm towards his coming of age so that he will take upon all the new mitzvos that he will perform with excitement.
That’s why we make we celebrate when we make a wedding, btw. Setting up a family is much more demanding than being single. From a husband (or wife – but is should really be the husband’s department) providing for his family, having children, bringing up children… It’s certainly much more burdensome than being single. So the wedding celebration is all about injecting excitement and to show that’s it’s an amazing time where we are building another binyan aday ad.
Lgabeh lavish and ostentatious simchos is another story. First of all, Jews have to act betznius in all aspects of our lives, even if they have all the money in the world. Tznius with our houses, simchos, dress and action.
Seperately from this is the crazy, needless pressure to keep up withe the “Cohens”. As my shitta is the middle way, I wouldn’t recommend making simchos in the house if others in the community do make it in a hall. I do believe that going the total opposite of ostentatious and making it in a very poor manner can also have a negative effect. So a simple hall, nicely, but not extra lavishly decorated, and excitement from the heart is a perfect recipe for perfect simchas. Simchas are excatly what the word implies – it’s a time for simcha.
As for bas mitzvas, I personally think a nice, women only type small celbration in one’s home, or a celebration for immediate family, also in the home, not in a hall, is a beautiful idea. I don’t see anything wrong with that. I think it’s a beautiful thing to show excitement at the time when a girl becomes mchiuv to do the mitzvos.
Philosopher, the problem with celebrating boys bar mitzvahs much more lavishly than girls is it makes many girls feel like second class citizens. At a time when girls are reaching an age of becoming who they are (as are boys), its hard to see fact from fiction.
Why does a bar mitzvah boy need a nice hall and a girl gets a meal in her house? Why does the boy get to invite all his friends and family and the girl doesn’t? Why does it feel like Judaism is all about men and women have to stay at home?
Teenage girls are searching for meaning in life and making a lavish affair for your sons and not for your daughters will send them the message they aren’t important. I’ve spoken to enough struggling teenage girls to know this is true.
When I make Bar Mitzvahs (I have no daughters yet so I don’t know what I would do with them), I want to concetrate on the shul setting and the mitzvah. Not on the party. I want to send the right message to my sons that its the mitzvah they should be celebrating not the party.
Emes is Emes
men and women are not the same
they have different roles
different responsibilities
different privileges
dont feed them untruths
if they feel bad about a difference explain to them why
Why does a boy need a lavish party? I’m not talking about celebrating a boys bar mitzvah – celebrate him getting called to the Torah and taking on his Torah obligations.
But a party in a hall? With music and dancing? Whats different between a girl and a boy with that? Neither are necessary. Neither are actually a celebration of the mitzvah aspect. They are both JUST parties.
Which is why I think neither should have a catered party in a hall. I think it sends the wrong message to everyone.
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