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Does Otzar Hachochma have more kedushah than Hebrewbooks? Does it look like a website designed in 1999?
Hey, hey, I designed a couple of web pages in the 1990s, do not touch that kedusha! Ironically, one Rebbetzin did not agree to post a photo of her family, whether for tzniyus or ayn hara ideas, so we had just the rav’s photo …. ironically – given how many photos are streamed now everywhere
I didn’t read everything in this thread, but I will say this:
While I constantly use Sefaria as it is a very useful Torah tool — it is clearly run by Reform elements, and if I would find an alternative I would gladly switch.
For example: The default translation for Tanach is the Reform “Contemporary Torah: A Gender-Sensitive Adaptation of the JPS Translation”
After you log in with your username, if you select a text, then on the right “translations” gives you a list of translations for this posuk. After you click on “select” on another translation, that became a default translation for all other books of Tanach
I also did not see much difference between JPS 2023 and JPS 1985 in several pesukim I looked at, none of them refer to Hashem as they/them.
Hm, I usually use it for Gemora and related texts and did not see anything like that … Mine default translation for tanach shows as “revised JPS 2023”. Obviously, a recent addition.
And in another option to download data, there are many options, include the one you mention gender-sensitive JPS along many respected ones. Is “revised JPS 2023” the gendered one? If you are right, this is unfortunate. Possibly they simply default to JPS and then take latest, and it is more on JPS for going that route? Or maybe, they indeed went to increase their market share …
“Or maybe, they indeed went to increase their market share …”
Yeah… I’m sure there’s a huuuuuuge market for pro-trans people wanting to learn Tanach…
Neville, we are all very comfortable talking to each other, while so many Jews with weird views are out there. There are lots of non-O publications and authors who write something Jewish-related.
The OP found his result by doing a Google search, not a search on Sefaria itself. A search on Sefaria using his query won’t give you any results. You actually have to goto that Perek, click on the Possuk, then go search for the right internet link or source page under the correct institution.
However, I was able to duplicate it by using his exact query in Google. It was the top result. However, I will qualify that the result ultimately links back to Mechon Hadar, which isn’t frum (by that I mean Yeshivish or even RWMO, but probably OO), but not necessarily non orthodox in the Reform or Conservative sense.
I do wonder why the OP felt it necessary to go throw an epic hissy fit on this website, rather than just go back what he’s supposed to be doing as a “Bochur”: learning Torah – and obviously forgetting he came across it.
My point is that it is clearly not orthodox (an orthodox organization would not ch”v platform reform literature).
I agree that it’s definitely full of orthodox content which is why I use it all the time.
“Neville, we are all very comfortable talking to each other, while so many Jews with weird views are out there. There are lots of non-O publications and authors who write something Jewish-related.”
You might be fine reading their stuff, but they are more dogmatic in their liberalism than we are in our Orthodoxy. They have no interest in actually reading real sources that aren’t altered to fit their freak beliefs unless they’re doing so just to poke fun.
I think sefaria is run by computer professionals, trying to create useful products. I still think that core texts and commentaries are kosher, while additional sites like sheets are created by users and are not supervised. As Menachem pointed that default Tanach translation is a little OTD, this means one needs to define the version you want.
I wish there was a cleaner delineation. Say, different site for the unauthoritative materials.
Just to clarify, I wasn’t talking about the people who run Sefaria in my last post. I was referring to the people who would theoretically want a wacky, tranny version of the Tanach. I still don’t believe this group actually exists.
I dont understand the point of people attacking bigbuchor for opening a thread about a totally valid subject even if he found the subject only through a Google link. That is irrelevent. The point is that Sefaria is run by non-religious Jews with non-religious views and 1.we must be aware of that 2. There may be issues that we don’t see as of yet and it may (quietly) become problematic and many of us may not even be aware of it when it happens
I myself use Safariah sometimes and never saw anything objectionable, although i did remember reading somewhere that they used a woke translation but i dont remember for what exactly. After reading this thread I went to the site and clicked on the community tab. I found an article by “Rabbi” Ruth Abusch-Magder, obviously a Reform “rabbi”. There’s an article by a contributor named “Sue Reinhold” of the “Pluralistic Rabbinic Seminary”… judging her personal life from her pic on Sefaria (she doesnt look like a lady nor like a man…), a quick Google search informed me that Sue Reinhold is actually “Rabbi” Sue Reinhold who is “married to” “Rabbi” Deborah Newbrun…
Neville, I know you don’t know these people, but do a thought experiment. American Jews are assimilating at rapid pace for already 4-5 generations. There are millions of Jews in that state. More than half of them are left-wing, so say 20% of those (underestimate) have wacky ideas.
Someone with inside knowledge suggested to me that 6 mln of Am Jews are comprised of 2 mln that are connected and are a growing community, and 4 mln are on the way out, both ideologically and in terms of birth rate (including birthing Jewish kids). So, this would give you 0.5 mln of wacky assimilated Jews. Say, 10% of them have occasional interest in something Jewish. Rather than running to the nearest Chabad house, they might as well search for answers online and get to sefaria.
“Just to clarify, I wasn’t talking about the people who run Sefaria in my last post. I was referring to the people who would theoretically want a wacky, tranny version of the Tanach. I still don’t believe this group actually exists.”
They definitely exist. Remember, most Jews in the US (I’m including Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist and unaffiliated, and even those who call themselves “patrilineal Jews”) tend to be left leaning politically and their Judaism (more like bagel flavored progressivism) is heavily affected by their politics, if not outright dictated by such. The same may be said about non-orthodox groups outside the US. You only need to scan speeches given by their leaders to see it. Those who are of my generation (millennial) and younger see it on social media (Facebook, Reddit and even LinkedIn).
JPS was probably trying to appeal to the non-orthodox world and remain relevant when doing what they did. I also suspect they also were under political pressure to do by those groups.
AAQ: What’s your point? I wasn’t being anti-sefaria, I was being anti a purposeful mistranslation of Tanach that uses modern, leftist gender theory. I think this got brought up because someone said that translation is on sefaria, but otherwise this part of the discussion has no connection to sefaria at all.
ZSK: Obviously I know that leftist, non-Orthodox Jews exist. My point was, there is no group that wants a leftist version of the Tanach. The only reason the leftists are learning Tanach is to make fun of it and/or claim that it’s outdated, bigoted, etc. The last thing they want is a whitewashed translation that makes it sound more palatable to them.
Philosopher: People always get touchy about this, and I’m not sure why either. I couldn’t give you to location because I just remember hearing it in a shiur, but Reb Moshe addresses the question of using a siddur that was printed with chillul shabbos. It’s not so clear cut that “it’s just a siddur so who cares how it was made and who made it.” I’m not sure why people are so much more willing to take this lenient approach with Sefaria.
I do think Sefaria is mutar, but it’s not simple. Given who designed it, it’s almost certain some chillul shabbos was involved. People would not be crazy to worry that it’s mitzvah habaah b’aveira, but I don’t think it actually is, nor is it so pashut that that would even make it assur.
Neville > The only reason the leftists are learning Tanach is to make fun of it and/or claim that it’s outdated, bigoted, etc.
Is this so? I see online a lot of articles where people try to analyze a parsha or a gemora according to their understanding and maybe trying to line up with their opinions on other topics. It is hit & miss, sometimes they come up with interesting ideas, more often with interesting questions. I do not see much higher biblical criticism around, but maybe it is just my tiktok feed … yours might be different.
I agree on mistranslation, see ^ how to fix that. The gendered version seems to be a recent thing.
Interesting question about non-religious doing online texts. This might be a qood question for when gedolim will be coming from the native digital generation. So, let’s wait another 50 years. Not knowing the background, my impression was that the core Sefaria team is kosher, given that their core/initial product is kosher texts, and the unmoderated sheets are a later addition and is really simply a tool for others to post their messages. Do you think all YWN software was written by shomer shabbos programmers or 99% of it is open software?
“Is this so? I see online a lot of articles where people try to analyze a parsha or a gemora according to their understanding and maybe trying to line up with their opinions on other topics.”
Yes, and those people want an accurate translation. If anything, the secular scholarly world cares more about translation accuracy than we do. For example, Artscroll purposely mistranslates Shir Hashirim to better shtem with Orthodox sentiment; secular scholars would hate this.“Not knowing the background, my impression was that the core Sefaria team is kosher”
The founders were not frum yidden from my understanding. They were exactly the scholarly types you reference above. Then again, so was Marcus Jastrow; it doesn’t mean the product is assur.“Do you think all YWN software was written by shomer shabbos programmers or 99% of it is open software?”
First of all, yes, I don’t believe YWN was created through chillul shabbos. I’m not sure why you would assume otherwise. Second of all, the question is around Sefaria because of it being used for davening and/or performing mitzvos. An internet forum does not have these concerns.regardless of the creators it doesn’t (necessarily) mean the product is assur
even twisted translations and the like are irrelevant, no one’s hashkafa is getting affectedstop banning things for the fun of it
unless you feel you’re actually being negatively affected by using sefaria which would be a different problem>> a lot of articles where people try to analyze a parsha or a gemora according to their understanding
Neville > Yes, and those people want an accurate translation.No, I mean people with left/right wing secular biases and they are comfortable with translations that caters to their biases. I am not saying they should 🙂 but they do!
As you correctly say, Artscroll (that I also use) – being kosher does not make it right. This goes way beyond shir hashirim. They superimpose their biases on amoraim same way many posters here do.
Bottom line – can someone ask a shaila: a Reform person takes an artscroll siddur and copies pages with amidah – are you allowed to use it for davening?
“Bottom line – can someone ask a shaila: a Reform person takes an artscroll siddur and copies pages with amidah – are you allowed to use it for davening?”
Did the reform Jew use the copy machine on Shabbos? If so, this would be the same shailah I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the exact psak; I think it was one of those “it’s mutar, but you still shouldn’t do it” type of things.If he didn’t make the copy on Shabbos, then what’s the question?
“No, I mean people with left/right wing secular biases and they are comfortable with translations that caters to their biases.”
Alright. I haven’t personally met anyone like this, but I’ll take your word for it.“even twisted translations and the like are irrelevant, no one’s hashkafa is getting affected”
Eh, if someone didn’t know better and didn’t realize the translations were twisted, it could absolutely affect their hashkafa. Again, I don’t actually think Sefaria should be wholesale banned or anything.
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