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SyagLchochom:
Yes, I also addressed the claim that the gemara TRANSLATION was “skewed.”
I asked for examples (from the TRANSLATION) and did not get any.
Do you have any, perhaps?Gadol, if we aspire to be like a feminist who denies the torah… that’s not a madrega, that’s the opposite direction. And if that’s who you’re “aspiring” towards… where are you now and where are you headed?
Ish kefi mehalelo…a man according to his praise. From what a person praises, we see what they’re machshiv.
“Yes, I also addressed the claim that the gemara TRANSLATION was “skewed.””
Yes. And you also made other comments and I addressed those.
Hi, BIGBOCHUR.
Oh, so it wasn’t within the site, by looking at the pasuk’s mefarshim on that site, that you were innocently led (by Sefaria) to a woman singing (“stumbled into”)?But that GOOGLE showed you a link, not Sefaria?
“a man according to his praise. From what a person praises, we see what they’re machshiv.”
Brilliant!! So beautifully stated. And I always thought your motto was “From what a person degrades we see what they’re machshiv” Take your own lesson to heart.
If you would have used your time to actually learn, you wouldn’t be so bent out of shape because you heard a woman singing. It’s happened before.
I’m sorry I’m coming late to the discussion (and possibly even sidetracking it) however look at the signs of acher and R Meir that really one shouldn’t learn Torah from apikorsim there is a whole raid on it from the tosfos over there, the rambam etc
Genocide, avodah zara, infanticide, nuclear holocausts, mass starvation, and lots of other things have ‘happened before’ too.
Someone asked rav chaim what the point of protesting is if it won’t change anything. His words are written on the heart of every ehrlich yid – vehn s’gait mivh ohn, shreit min
When it hurts, you scream.
……….It’s happened before. And when it happens to Bnei Torah view open their gemara and completely forget that it ever occurred.
……….It’s happened before. And when it happens to Bnei Torah they open their gemara and completely forget that it ever occurred.
it says איזהו חכם הלומד מכל אדם like Rebbi Meir who was able to learn even from Acher.
Interesting point is that someone found a funny page by using google pointing to sefaria.
One possible reason: google will highlight something “popular” and we know what “rov” is interested in … I would guess that X-rated pages from Yevamos are highly rated by Google, whether they have a difficult tosfos or not.
Another: google is following your history. So, if it learned that you are young, male, not very much, and maybe, G-d forbid, ever tried to avoid your parents’ filters – google will lead you where you want. This is like Hashem usually does – if you insist on your way, he’ll let you.
Bottom line – try using internet responsibly and then google will learn your interests and become better to you.
common > look at the signs of acher and R Meir that really one shouldn’t learn Torah from apikorsim
due to my sins, I could not see to which post this relates, but this is an interesting topics in itself. Rambam seemingly ignores Gemora’s permission for “gedolim” to learn from “acherim”. Some (Rav Shach?) explain that he felt that in his times, there were no gedolim any more (sic!), others – that he is writing general advice or talking about public teaching. This is interesting in light of Rambam obviously learning (maybe not torah but Chochma only) from “Acherim”, at least Muslim and Greek ones.
Clearly, R Meir’s situation is pretty exceptional. I do not see this mentioned, but he apparently started ldearning from Acher before Acher went OTD. So, there is an issue of attachment and all Torah that he already learned.
R Soloveichik has a talk in 1991 about Acher and how he is a complicated personality who misunderstood himself
repaired
Dear Always,
Your guess is wrong. And the page in question is not a result of search history. It’s a pretty specific query.
His words are written on the heart of every ehrlich yid…..
Yes, but for Bnei Torah kasvam al luach leebecha, it’s not worth the space.
“it says איזהו חכם הלומד מכל אדם like Rebbi Meir who was able to learn even from Acher.“
That’s true however tosfos gives a reason why Rav Meir can do it, there are Halachos regarding who one can learn from, and they make a differentiation between a גדול & קטן and if a person will be swayed by the apikorus then he’s a קטן and it’s not so pashut who won’t be swayed
Dear Coffee,
That would be to sit and study by him as an attempt to imbibe all his wisdom. It doesn’t apply to gaining insight into a specific matter. And for sure not to translations or finding sources.
N0mesorah,
If a bowl is dirty the water poured into it becomes dirty too
Dear Coffee,
If it’s that’s kind of problem, than we can just look at the product and see what it is. What’s wrong with sefaria? I can’t vouch for it, but a bachur coming across song lyrics and then clicking on the link to Facebook, is not a standard breaker to me.
Understood
N0mesorah,
Looking at the first page of this thread is what I was basing on
It does say in the gemara that “sefer Torah shekosvoi min yisoref”.
Its easy enough to look up the halacha. See what poskim say, not gadolhadorah.
Dear Big,
Translations? No.
Do you see anything wrong about learning Bircas Shmuel from a Rosh Yeshiva who can’t quote tosafos straight?
Dear Nisht,
It’s on a screen. So that’s not really a factor here. Let’s keep the issue to content.
Dear Big,
The translations are from koren. Which is all men. I don’t know what they added from women. Additional translations? No problem. Links to mefarshim? No problem. Background information? No problem. I don’t use sefaria much, so I can’t guess more. You’ll have to find out what the women contribute before anyone should care about your gripes.
Your ignorance is nobody’s problem but your own.
“So you don’t see anything wrong with learning Gemora from women?”
Absolutely not, unless you prefer to wallow in your ignorance derived exclusively from male sources. If a woman can provide a more intelligible and accessible pshat on some sugyah you have previously had difficulty understanding, you’d be a real jerk to avoid reading it simply because it was WRITTEN by a woman.
So, grow up “Big Bochur?N0mesorah
Perhaps ponder for a moment why the Halacha is so. Did you really think I was advocating burning down the internet?
It is clear from the mesorah we have from gedolie poskim such as the mechaber is that you should not from such books.
But, your answer is that it’s on a screen. Very elegant.
I don’t see the issue with banning. Whomever has an issue, don’t use it, just don’t tell others not to.
Dear Big,
First verify that they used her translations. They didn’t they used Koren. Did they put anything of hers into the Online Talmud? I doubt it. She’s not a layman’s kind of scholar. It’s your assumption that her ideas are mixed into the site. Prove it. The fact that you got so bent out of shape without realizing that you perf seeing song lyrics when you where looking for mefarshim on a passuk. If they have Hauptmann singing songs and you think that’s her saying a heretical pshat in the gemara, we’re not going to ban Sefaria. We’ll shun you for being unreliable.
״Absolutely not, unless you prefer to wallow in your ignorance derived exclusively from male sources.״
כל המלמד בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תפלות
Dear Big,
My apikorsus is my own. That’s why I work off what you say, without trying to paint a picture of you. It doesn’t matter. Even someone like Hauptmann could sometimes have a good point.
But your picture is all wrong. If your Rebbe is stuck on a Reb Akiva Eiger, I’ll help him out.
Dear Nisht,
Sorry I overrated what you meant.
1. The point is, it’s on your screen. Your the one who ‘wrote it’. Assuming you don’t see yourself as a min, if you approve of the content, there is no problem here. It is regular Torah.
2. Here is what I once pondered on this halachah. Is it a regular k’sav without kedushas stam? Is it no kedushah at all, but it looks like sheimos, so we save it? Is it a full kedushah but minus can’t be Torah, so it’s burned?
3. It is even more clear from the contents of the sefarim that are treasured on our shelves, that we have been using these sources when the contents are good.
big? bochur > You dont see anything wrong with learning Gemora from women?
Rav Yehuda laughs off some arrogant request for learning comparing him with Beruriah and her great ability to learn a lot from multiple teachers. He is not recommending to learn from Beruriah, but it is at least a testimony that multiple teachers would either admit Beruriah into their class, or teach her one-on-one (with presumably the Rebetzin sitting and knitting nearby).
If you want to apply this sugiya to modern times, you will be better off learning opinions of, say, R Moshe Feinstein and his relatives – a cousin and a son-in-law. You can also peruse CR.
The women make birchas hatorah, so the women are required to learn what applies to them.
Dear Big,
The discussion in those sources is about teaching Torah to women. That means that the students are female. Not what gender the teachers are. I would discuss either with you if you try to get anything straight.
I’m not ranting. The fact is that Sefaria got their translation from Steinsaltz. In your view, what is the difference between lying and research?
The problem with Haupttman is not that she is a woman. She, and nobody like her, had any impact on their translation of the Talmud.
There are no mefarshim on that page. Only links. Can you answer if you played her song, and why you decided to click on the embedded video?
I looked up those pages from your first mention of them. I’ve been calling your bluff the whole time. Here’s a tip. Before you make outrageous statements online, think what would happen if just one person with a different view takes the time to check it up.
Why do we need to ban anything? You’re a smart person! You don’t like it, don’t use it.
PI > Why do we need to ban anything? You’re a smart person!
There is value of having Jewish resources without shmutz, so that people who do not want it can confidently stay on that site. That what a smart person would do. Sefaria seems to be doing a reasonable trade-off between being an open site and limiting problems, given that only one person here was able to find something inappropriate (probably after looking for it for a long time).
n0mesorah, thanks a lot. I did not know that Sefaria’s gemora is using R Steinsaltz! Woe to me for not recognizing it … I think I looked up what Seforia sources are before 2017. I don’t recall whether they had Bavli then at all. Also, they are using mathematician’s Heinrich Guggenheimer 2015 translation for Yerushalmi.
Edited
Achat Sha’alti (Psalm 27:4)
Singing the Psalms with Deborah Sacks Mintz
can be found on Sefaria at the following URL
https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/260351?lang=biWe had a thread in the CR a long time ago about whether Hebrewbooks dot org has more kedushah than Sefaria, then whether beta dot hebrewbooks has more or less kedushah than that. I miss those days.
I personally find beta hebrewbooks more user-friendly, which makes it less holy. Then, sefaria is possibly even more user-friendly than that, which basically makes it pure evil.
It’s like with shuls: the most chashuve shules have no websites and you have to be “in-the-know” to even know they exist. The next level has almost nothing, just a page to donate that feels like it has very dubious security. Then, the shuls with fully functional, user-friendly websites where you can find all the information you need might as well be Reform.
In any case, this thread was never about Sefaria; you all just read the title wrongly. It’s about Seafria, which is I assume a forum where expert seafarers discuss their latest adventures. I’m not sure the world is ready to female seafarers yet.
As your link says, “sheets”. Sefaria has classical texts, and then they allow users to create their own sheets. The texts are reliable.
I don’t think they are policing the sheets, at least not too heavily. I usually go from texts, and usually see sheets consisting of references to the texts.If you are a user yourself, you should know this difference. If you are using sefaria for school, put a filter on https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/.
Neville, I think, hebrewbooks has lots of hebrew books indeed (as advertised in the name!) BUT without links to other commentaries and search options.
Otzar Hahochma has more capabilities.
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