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HSS: “then the hanhala should find a way to pay for these kids’ education and not force it on the rest of the klal.”
They used to do exactly that, by Gvirim supporting schools with huge donations. Seems there are not enough Gvirim able/willing to carry the load now. That is the problem.
Azoi.is…What I meant is that the hanhala should not rely on others but should make up the difference somehow. Take less of a paycheck home for themselves. By expecting Gvirim to pay it still is on the public dole because once they cant pay, everyone else is told to pay up.
GAW- ok (i guess?)… 😉 glad to see we are on the same page (or post?)
Artchill:
“Regarding tuition, tuition is an arbitrary figure meant to challenge the wealthy to step up.”
I suspected that is the case “in town”. Are you confirming this? Have you spoken to the various administrators? Do the offer a tax deduction (since the money is not required to be paid, they may have to give a tax deductible reciept for “no goods or services”)?
Perhaps you didn’t understand what I wrote. **EDITED**
Tuition expenses is the amount needed to pay the teachers (let’s say a fifth grader) divided by the amount of children in the class.
Building Funds are expenses spread evenly throughout parent body for the span of elementary school. 600K mortgage divided among 250 parents divided into ten years.
Tuition does not come close to 12K per child. That is a purely fictional figure made up arbitrarily by the board and administration as a tool to say, “Hey tough guy, if you want to show you’re a somebody, pay this”. This is not Chas V’Shalom something any principal or tuition committee can use to deny access to a child. Every school has a few parents that are still employed and could afford.If every parent were to pay a building fund and bare bones tuition there WILL be ample cash on hand to keep the school afloat.
Unless, the school wilfully commits suicide and gambles everything away by expanding buildings with no cash in hand. BYOBP gambled and hoped to embarrass people into stepping up, but lost this time.
artchill- you forgot about a few things. In a school there are other expenses besides teachers. What about gas, water, mortgage/rent, electricity costs? Costs: chalk, board markers, desks and chairs, books (even second hand it adds up. If the students are required to buy their own, then there are still the teacher’s edition and copy to think about), light bulbs, pens for the office, paper… the list goes on and on- and these are the bare bones! what about if there is a plumbing or sewage problem? You wouldnt want your child to be in a school without a working sink or bathroom. what if there were other basic issues with the building? a leaky roof? electrical issues? They need a better accountant if tuition isnt covering the costs but how much is this “bare bones tuition”? It must include all of the above…
“Education is a necessity. At least homeschooling is pikuach nefesh, if one cannot go to the standard type of school. So if you wont homeschool, tuition is a necessity!”
If you won’t homeschool (at least make the effort), you can coop. If you can’t coop, you can try to hire out of work teachers with others to reduce costs. There are ways.
The problem is we’ve been running a school system where most people cannot afford to cover their basic tuition. We haven’t fixed the problem because there were enough donations coming in. Now donations have stopped – how do we fix the system without throwing money at the problem?
I wonder if sending younger kids to public school (like grades 1-3) would help. Thats 3 years tuition free AND thats young enough where parents are qualified to teach the basics. But I don’t think parents would do that…
I also wonder if all the parents save the box tops for education. With the number of kids in that school, it could make a dent. Not enormous enough to SAVE the school, but every penny counts.
SJSinNYC 🙂 Of course Boxtops. And why not cans while you are at it?
I would not send the BYOBP children to public school (NJ is different than “in town Boro Park”, as Public School is “scary” in Brooklyn and it would never happen with the oilam’s racial prejudices), but keep them home and teach them how to read and add (which anyone should be able to do, if they try). If they can do that, they will be just as well off in fourth grade as anyone else in the system.
The best argument you can muster against ever sending a Jewish Neshomo to public school is “the oilam’s racial prejudices”?
Wow!
Wow!
GAW: ” I would not send the BYOBP children to public school (NJ is different than “in town Boro Park”, as Public School is “scary” in Brooklyn and it would never happen “
BP parents are just as likely to homeschool as to send their kids to public school. THAT will never happen as well, if for no other reason than BP’ers are proud and would never want their neighbors to know they can’t afford tuition. In the eleventh hour, remaining Gvirim will come to the rescue, if they haven’t already. I don’t believe for one minute that the Admin ever believed that the school wouldn’t repoen for the school year.
In any case, the same Chinuch institutions that taught not to worry and plan for Parnassah, and to have Bitachon, will NOT let their students (the current parents) down.
The government pays out huge sums of money for public schools. With a bit of creativity, I’m sure it will be possible to think of a way where secular studies can be paid for by the government without violating First Amendment rights, lowering the costs to then provide additional limudei kodesh studies at an affordable level.
Jothar, While what you say is very logical and should be true, it would have long ago happened if it were doable. The only way that could happen, is via legislation.
Joseph:
I’m still waiting for an answer from you. Did you ask a Rav what you need to give up to pay tuition? Also read up the rest of the thread that you “missed” further up. 🙂
(Once again to Dan LeKaf Zechus)
gavra, Asking a “shaila” on a theoretical point is frivolous. Since I am not asking for personal tachlis, it would be wrong for me to utilize a Rov’s time on clarifying a “Coffee Room” debate.
I hadn’t missed anything up there.
Jothar, until New York’s Blaine amendment is repealed, funding for sectarian private schools (beyond limited services such as bussing) is illegal. Given that the state government is low on funds, it is unlikely that the amendment will be repealed at this time.
SJS, I do clip box tops, but as the top-earning school in the country earned around $12,000 I doubt it can make much of a difference.
anon: The greatest obstacle to it, by far, are the teacher’s unions.
Joseph:
Being that you have no idea what the halacha is and refuse to ask, how can you possibly have any point as to what people should do?
If you’re talking your own Daas Hedyot, so be it.
gavra: I have no idea how you come to your conclusions. Every point you made is incorrect.
Perhaps it’s time to modify the slant in our schools and tell our kids (they need to hear a uniform message from both parents and school personnel) that Parnasa plans are vitally important, early on, when one can realistically implement them. Otherwise we all suffer in many ways… Shalom Bayis.. increase of white collar crime…govt ripoffs…all leading to Chilul Hashem…
Talking about tax credits/goverment aid in this economy is futile, and should not be our “plan”.
Please explain yourself.
I guess we should all vote for something called school vouchers- This is where the government gives each family a coupon for the amount it would cost for them to teach your child that year in public school. You can give this to ANY accredited school that you want: public, private, religious (any), prep, magnet…
The government would pay that amount to the school and you would have to make up the difference. Of course tuition would only increase (the parents would still be out the same amount of money) but then those who couldnt pay still are as if they “paid” part of it! The schools end up with a little more money (and the average student is better educated in the public school-parents have the choice now!)
The government wont push this now but if we pressure our governors and senators (some of this would be federal aid), eventually the message will be heard. google your representative’s name and email them!
havesomeseichel:
Vouchers are a wonderful idea (and I would vote for them), but being that it has been tried for the last fifty years (by the Agudah as well as others) with little or no success, perhaps we should not wait for it? Particularly when state budgets are in the red and being cut, we can’t expect any help from the goverment.
AZOI: Its called a more “modern” yeshiva by definition if it calls to think about parnassah. Seeing how many people want to move to be more Machmir, the schools will not move in that direction.
With 200+ posts, I’m pretty sure someone has made the following calculation, but just in case, this was the math I came up with over the weekend:
This is based on comments from R’ Shapiro’s interview in Hamodia’s weekend edition: Staff is about 400 people, figure about $3,000,000
Tution roll of aproximatly $8,000,000 (2000 students @ $4000)
That means there is still another 5 mil to work with. All that goes for chalk and copy paper? PLus, there was no mention about govt $ (which must surely be in the very high 6 digits). Sad fact is, no one is minding the store, becuase for SOOOO many years, there was more money coming in (a quick trip to XYZ gevir could yeild $50 grand, just for asking) so it was never a problem. Now, its a problem?
Sounds like someone is due for an audit. I’ll bet any business man or woman with 10 years experience could revamp BYOB and make it profitable. But that would require full disclosure on BY’s part… something mosdos will NEVER agree to.
And that is why the public is so sceptical and so complacent. Do they want help, or do they just want more money? We’d love to help. Money? Hmm. Not so fast
HSS, NY’s Blaine Amendment makes vouchers illegal.
GAW, I know that one day school in Milwaukee, WI is funded by vouchers. I am not aware of any other day schools/ yeshivos located in communities where vouchers are available. I agree that repeal the Blaine Amendment should not be expected anytime soon.
gaw- I said that it isnt a priority but it has gotten on the ballot in many states (catholic school kids and private-school goers like it as well as Yidden). It hasnt gone far but we can still try. Why wait for a lobyist group to do it- call, write and email them yourselves! It is worth a shot!
BPtotty- audits have been suggested, but what school would allow that to happen to their institution? All sorts of stuff might come out that they dont want to happen. It wouldnt be as much as 5 mil because you forgot about rent, books (50-100 each, depending on subject for secular… dont know what type of deal they get on lemudai kodesh), furniture ect…
GAW: “Its called a more “modern” yeshiva by definition if it calls to think about parnassah. Seeing how many people want to move to be more Machmir, the schools will not move in that direction. “
At least 50% of Brooklyn people that I know (BYOBP type) would love for the schools to start leaning towards Parnasa readiness. Those are the ones who are open about it, I strongly suspect many others think it.
anon- so in NY they are illegal. What about NJ residents? I am sure there are plenty of frum people who would love vouchers! All those families in Edison, Elizabeth,Lakewood…. should be happy!
what was the reasoning that they became illegal? I am pre-empting the expected comment: “because they hate yidden” because this hurts all those Xian schools as well. I meant a reason that they could say publicly- is it shame that their public schools are doing so terribly?
Vouchers haven been fought against, successfully 99.9+% of the time, tooth and nail by the powerful teacher’s unions.
Seperation of church and state. By law, states cannot use public money to pay for private schools.?
Vouchers are shtussim unless the state is firmly in the black, or has a very strong, and organized ?Conservative base of voters. New York/New Jersey need not apply for this!!!?
Du kenst hacken fun heint biz morgan, uber iz gurnisht helfen!
In any event, I’m not convinced that public support of religious schools is the right thing. Putting aside the obvious self-interest to myself (as a tuition paying parent), I think that there is far more harm in the long run from state support of religious schools.
The Wolf
BP Totty: I don’t understand your math. You are assuming an average annual salary of just $7500 per staff member. I more realistic $ 20,000 would have the payroll alone at $8,000,000 and already meeting the tuition income. Once you add in the other expenses and take into account that many if not most student never paid full tuition, it is miraculous that the school made it this far.
Please don’t besmirch the administration without doing your math a little better.
artchill- please translate… I dont do yiddish well…
I understand seperating church and state, and that is why the money was to ANY school, it can be the “athiests elementary” for all the program cares. It was supposed to help get the smarter kids out of public school and into private better educated schools. Did you know that the NY gov once gave a lot of money to Catholic schools for taking attendance (required by law to makes sure the students were coming to school). That way the schools got money and the govt wasnt violating church and state… maybe what we need is a nice gov who wants a lot of the brooklyn vote… (even though it is quite small comparatively to the entire state. It is just one that can swing easily)
See my earlier posts, because even if we solve the tuition dilemma (unlikely), BYOBP-type parents are financially underwater, because of the fact that their expenses (real neccessities) cost more than their income. Inability to pay tuition is but a small symptom of the massive problem.
HSS, you are correct. Blaine Amendments, passed around the turn of the 20th century, were not anti-Semitic–they were anti-Catholic. Also, Blaine Amendments are not the only obstacle to school vouchers. Several states, including NJ, don’t have Blaine Amendments at all, but I don’t think there are any vouchers in NJ. I agree with GAW that there would not be much support for Blaine amendment repeals/ vouchers at this time, given that state gov’ts are low on cash now.
Did you know that the NY gov once gave a lot of money to Catholic schools for taking attendance (required by law to makes sure the students were coming to school). That way the schools got money and the govt wasnt violating church and state…
Can you please provide more info on when this happened? Which governor? What time period? Because the state constitution is very explicit on what services can be provided to religious schools and money for “taking attendance” is not among them.
For reference, here is Article XI section 3 of the New York State Constitution:
To me, that seems to say the state can pay to inspect the buildings and provide transportation. Nothing about money for any other required task, including “taking attendance.”
The Wolf
Oh, HSS, one more thing… no Governor could provide funding even if he wanted to. To do so, he’d have to change the state constitution. How do you do that, you ask?
Very simple:
Someone in the Senate or Assembly proposes an amendment to the constitution. The state Attorney General reviews the proposed change for twenty days and issues a report to the legislature (concerning how it might affect other parts of the constitution and so on).
After both houses receive the AG report, they vote on it. Assuming it passes with a majority of both houses, it then has to go to the people for ratification. Assuming the people give it the OK, it becomes part of the state constitution on the next January 1.
It sounds simple, but anyone with any understanding of the way things run in Albany (displayed in spectacular fashion this past summer) knows that the chances of changing that amendment through the legislature are almost nil. And even if that passes, the chances of getting the people to okay it are less than nil (remember, only one out of every three people in New York lives in NYC).
In short, don’t count on New York ever providing funding for religious schools.
The Wolf
I dont remember when this was, but it did happen. When was this amendment to the NY state constitution passed?
Maybe it can’t be passed in NY, but I have not heard of other states with such an amendment in their state constitution. You said NJ doesn’t and neither does CA for that matter. I dont know about Illinois, TX, Maryland, Florida or any other state with a large Jewish population. Just because no one has vouchers doesnt mean that they can’t have them. We need to push our representatives. Who says we can’t help our brethren in other states try to pass vouchers? If one community has a little extra money now that they have state funds, maybe they will be more willing to help other areas. Or at least more frum people will move their and that community will grow.
Help other Yidden!
We should be trying to fix this from within, even if we pursue school vouchers. Fixing the current problem is important to do right now. Vouchers are a longer term goal.
Vouchers are a long term goal, you are right SJSinNYC, but we need to start soon… if we pressure long enough and hard enough (especially if there are elections coming up soon) it can happen. But schools need to fix their yearly deficit. Why should they be allowed to run negative every year? Something has got to change about the way schools are run.
Any school administrators here? Maybe you can lend us some insight…
Neither Maryland nor New Jersey has a Blaine Amendment. However, California, Illinois, and Florida do. Back when I was a high school student in Maryland in the 1970s there was a big push, led by the Catholic church, to get direct state aid to religious schools. It never went anywhere.
There was an attempt in 1967 to repeal New York’s Blaine Amendment; I think it got 29% of the vote in the required referendum. There has been AFAIK no real attempt since then. Most voucher referenda have lost by similarly landslike margins everywhere they have gone before the voters in the US, not a single one has passed.
“The greatest obstacle to it, by far, are the teacher’s unions. “
This is incorrect; the greatest obstacles are (1) voters who don’t want to pay higher taxes, and (2) the ghost of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison who spent much of their careers trying (mostly successfully) to separate religion from government. Attacking the principles of Jefferson and Madison is considered un-American by most Americans.
A better method than union-bashing would be to get the unions to join us! Most Catholic schools in NY and NJ are unionized; why not Jewish schools? The unions would then support aid because it would allow for better pay, benefits, and job security. We have been going down a dead end path by aligning ourselves with the right wing crazies who want to destroy public education; aligning with the Catholic clergy and educators would be much more likely to show positive results.
Charlie, You are incorrect. It never went to a public vote.
Charlie,
There is already enough of an alignment with the Catholic Church!! Agudah is best served to drop the voucher campaign, and sell the importance of supporting Chinuch (over kiruv, and kollel). If the regular Jew doesn’t buy into the importance of supporting Chinuch, why would the average American taxpayer.
Joseph,
You are wrong, there was a vote on proposed constitutional revisons in 1967 and the main issue was the Blaine Amendment. I’d provide links but YWN doesn’t permit outside links. Do a little research for yourself and you’ll learn the truth.
artchill,
You make an interesting point. With resources that are not infinite, we can’t support every kollel, nor every kiruv effort. For example, which is more important: Keeping adult men learning for years in kollel, or keeping schools open? Would the answer be different if we knew that more frum families will be sending their kids to public schools as a direct result of allocating funds to kollel or kiruv organizations?
I don’t have an answer but someone should at least be asking the questions.
Another idea: While in the US there is essentially no governmental funding for religious education, there is governmental funding for other communal institutions such as social service organizations. Agudath Israel itself even gets some government funding! We could push for substantial increases in social welfare spending that would be directed towards our communal social service organizations and redirect our resources towards education. We could do the same with emergency medical services, getting the government to better fund its fire and rescue services so that Hatzalah didn’t need as much Jewish funding — or even give direct grants to Hatzalah. There are probably other examples.
Charlie, you are incorrect. It was not the main issue, but a side point.
artchill: “Agudah is best served to drop the voucher campaign, and sell the importance of supporting Chinuch (over kiruv, and kollel).”
chatrliehall: “For example, which is more important: Keeping adult men learning for years in kollel, or keeping schools open?”
Brilliant points! There’s only so much we can stretch the DOUGH!
charliehall, thanks for the information about Blaine Amendments. Perhaps you would explain one point I don’t understand: I’ve read that Wisconsin has a Blaine Amendment, yet I believe religious schools in Milwaukee (including at least one Jewish day school) are funded through vouchers. How is this possible?
Seichel –
I skipped rent because BYOB’s 2 main buildings have long been paid for.
PM –
Since no moisad ever reveals what they pay to each staff member,its all guesswork. But if you average out 1st year teachers assitanst that work part time, for $10-12 /hr and full timer teachers with some experince that probably get $20-25 an hour (any teachers out there, please correct me if I’m wrong, aside from the pricipals (who probalby get $40-50K) my guesswork is probably not that far off. Of course, the administartor is probably getting $100k, but that’s a whole other issue.
And the $4000 / child tuition estimate was from Rabbi Shapiro, not me.
Anon for This:
School vouchers in Milwaukee, South Bend, Cincinatti, and parts of Cleveland are in place for one reason only. The public school system is a dismal failure. Many schools are on watch, and others have been forced to close due to well below par education results. THEREFORE, the U.S. Department of Education gave a nice chunk of money to afford the choice to the parents. So, only where the facts on the ground speak to a dismal failure, an educational meltdown so to speak, can the Federal government step in and override a state constitutional amendment.
New York, most New Jersey, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. school system is not so subpar to allow voucher payments. So, this won’t be happening in New York. Unless all of Lakewood moves to inner-city Newark, they won’t be eligible either!!
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