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Joseph- Oh, you can instead call parents and tell them not to send their children to school because they cannot pay. Some schools are not letting kids into classes if their parents were unable to pay. And that is not embarrassing?
Any administrator, or anyone, doing that will burn for it.
SJS: Tzedaka does wonders. Both for the giver and the receiver.
When I was in High School 20 years ago, I was called out of class until my parents made the monthly tuition payment and could not return to class till it was taken care of. The other girls who they called out and I was embarassed to say the least. I just wish the school did it differently. As much as I am grateful for what they taught me, I really resented this tactic. My parents really did try to pay what they could.
A friend who is trying to get her daughter in this high school told me that this same school, is charging $20,000, for the year. Oh, they’ll knock off $4,000.00 if you pay in cash and in full. She isn’t sure where her daughter will be going for High School yet!!
So, what will be for the parents who can not make the tuition payments. They are already stretched. And I have a question for the homeschool idea. What happens if a parent is not so well versed in certain subjects. Take for instance Math. Let’s just say when I see numbers my mind has melt down.
Also, another question, regarding Homeschooling, what if the parents are working?
mazal77:
Excellent points.
Bottom line: Homeschooling is impossible for most parents for a multitude of reasons.
I think its plain and simple not fair to take it out on the kids when a school doesn’t receive payment when the parents can’t afford it. At the same time, what are the schools supposed to do for the kids who have but just don’t pay up until they take drastic measures? I’m just not sure how they can tell the difference between the ones that have and the ones that don’t…
There is a famous teshuva of Reb Moshe ZT”L what to do.
Ok, with homeschooling I have some ideas… you can get together with other families who cannot afford tuition or do not like the schooling options in your area or have special needs children (ranging from too smart for their class to remedial). You need a few kids the same age range or ability level to get together in one person’s house.
You have two options:
a)hire a tutor to teach the material. This could be a retired teacher or one who is out of work during the recession.
b)split the teaching between the parents. One parent does kodesh classes, another chol.
About payment:
a)Each parent pays a certain amount
b)The money can be pooled and pays for the teaching supplies (teacher’s edition of textbook, to copy pages for the students ect) and a small sum for the parent who’s house it is in (extra electricity,gas, water, to clean up from the mess). Money can also be split amongst the teachers evenly. With this money they can pay for their children to be a part of the “homeschool” if they cant afford it on their own.
If done right, it should cost less as there will be less overhead. No secretaries, no mortgage, no fancy equipment.
books should be paid for individually but make sure its the same edition and textbook!
hope this helps. If you have any questions, let me know!
Joseph- I disagree with you here. It takes a lot of planning but it can be very rewarding. Your kids can end up smarter and ahead of their grade-counterparts and they learn many skills like perseverance and individual work. They also gain an inner drive to work by themselves and for themselves. They can really gain an interest in the subject matter and if they are able to help pick some of it, they will be even more interested! (like american history, state history, world history ect and can concentrate on aspects that they are interested in, not what the teacher likes).
It is a cheaper alternative that can reap fabulous results. The parents dont have to do the teaching themselves as long as there is one parent per level. Or you can join similar levels together for subjects that it doesnt matter what age they are and give different assignments on the topic.
My childrens school, to get a scholarship, you must fill like a 15 page form. About annual salary, benefits, expenses, like taxes, all utilities, medical premiums, other tuition payments, charitable donations, clothing food, all bank accounts, homes and summer vacation propertie., other properties and their approximate value, income from rental properties, vacations in the last year,cars model year and finance info, insurance information, 2 recents tax returns, Household help – how much you pay and how often. Liablities, 401 K, Ira, stocks and bonds, If you go away for the summer, If you send kids to day camp and sleepaway camp and how much does it cost. Do you receive Government assistance, and if so, what type, and how much. They also ask permission to obtain a credit report.
The schools do have a right to ask these questions. They really do need to know who can pay and who really can not.
Joseph, there is a limit to how much tzedaka I can give. And I still think feeding kids food takes priority over teaching them science. So that is where I make my priority to give.
Mazal, I am sorry that you had a difficult time. However, if a large enough portion of the student body isn’t paying enough, and funds aren’t coming in, what is a school supposed to do?
As for homeschooling – I think its a lot more practical than people think. Coops (where parents help each other out with subjects of their strengths) are also very feasible. You can’t teach math – that’s ok, another parent isn’t great at teaching chumash. Younger grades are also easier to homeschool because most people know the basics.
I guess BYoBP has to decide – educate those that they can afford to educate, or force 2100 students to lose out.
I predict the school will stay open for a year or maybe two (on donations), then it will sell the extremely desirable property, which will yield a huge price, and move to Flatbush (or possibly Lakewood) and rebuild there, where it will again be a tremendous success, and take high paying students away from other schools there.
I think as a whole we need to examine why our school system is failing so badly. Why are so many parents unable to afford basic education for their children? BYoBP is not exactly a luxury school…so why can’t people even afford the minimum?
SJS- even “non luxury schools” have overheads just like other schools…
It seems from the posters that tuition is lower in BYBP but it must not be covering their needs as too many parents are paying. This is an endless cycle and giving money seems like throwing money down the drain unless accountants and professionals are able to look where the money is going. Are there too many secretaries? Staff? do they spend too much on extras?
I think some ” out of towners” don’t understand NY. In Boro Park or Flatbush, a 2 bedroom apartment usually goes for about $1300. 3 bedrooms are about $1800. We aren’t not talking about mansions here. It’s also not terribally cheaper further out. Also, will the school send buses furthor out?
I would say that most women work these days. Frum baby sitters could run up to $10/hour. For women who are paid minimum wages, well, you figure it out. Does it pay for her to work? Oh, and what kind of frum upbringing are all these children getting from the baby sitters? Just asking.
Back to the issue. There aren’t 100 girl’s schools of equal hashkafos in the Brooklyn area. I dont think there are 100 girls schools in Brooklyn at all. My brother-in-law is an administrator in a small Bais Yakov. The classes are already about 30 girls/class. You want to put more in there and expect them to learn? Our schools are crowded because most schools DO cut costs by having one less paralel class and by not building.
Bottom line, as I see it, many parents have lost jobs recently with the economic downturn. I go into stores and I see less customers which translates into stores losing money which translates into layoffs or being paid less. Or stores not being able to pay at all. The economic downturn means that the big donors who have taken big hits don’t have money to donate like they used to. Some people insinuate that the parents of BYOB don’t want to pay. I look at empty stores and I can tell you that for the most part I don’t beleive that is the case. People are hurting. To pay more tuition when you can barely pay for rent, food and utilities makes no sense to me. Home schooling for everyone is impractical. Most parent can’t do it and besides, most women work.
The answer? I’m not sure. It would certainly help if everyone in Brookly sent in some money. Your own school goes first, but this is pretty important. I don’t really have an answer. I think we have a lot of devening to do this Rosh Hashana. Hashem should watch over us and help us.
Sorry that this is so long.
just me: Excellent post.
just me- I hate to say it but
a)people all over the country are hurting.
b)housing prices for small houses or apartments (not huge homes either) in some other communities (not all but some) are even higher.
c)people all over the country cant pay their bills.
d)people are cutting back and only paying for necessities everywhere
IT ISNT JUST IN BROOKLYN!
There are those people everywhere who have a hard time cutting back. How many of you in the CR have gone to the mountains this summer? How many have paid to send their kids to sleep away camp? Gone on a vacation? Redecorated part of their house? Went to Eretz Yisrael this past year? Own a second home/apartment/timeshare/bungalow???
If you answered yes to any of these questions, I think you should have a hard time answering to why they cant pay tuition. None of these are “basic necessities” but many people here have stated that it is “pikuach nefesh” to keep these schools open. Hmm. Is eating out at a fancy restaurant pikuach nefesh? Going to the Catskills?
Its Elul and thats the time for a proper cheshbone hanefesh. Maybe its time for a monetary cheshbon.
HSS, I agree with what you said about the necessities really being necessities, except for one thing. I think a vacation is very important. No, it does not need to be to the bahamas, but I think something, (even a few days in a hotel) is very, very important. I think it recharges batteries like nothing else can.
Kapusta, I agree, but there is just no money for that. The last time my husband and I took our only vacation together was about 8 years ago, and I had to be convinced by our Rabbi that it was a necessity for us.
kapusta- I agree that a vacation can be recharging, but make it a “stay-cation” or make it small. keep it minimal and dont make your “battery recharge” be on the expense of others. I have absolutely no problem with sending the kids to grandma and going to a hotel for a few days. What I have an issue with is when people go to E”Y for a few weeks in the summer or pay a lot of money to go to a hotel for Pesach or own a second home or something large like that and cannot afford tuition. What if you knew that because you upgraded to a nicer hotel room that the school cannot afford to stay open and a few hundred kids are out of school. It all has to be in proportion. That’s all.
and what about a day trip on a sunday or something?
HSS, that I agree with.
Justme, you make some valid points BUT I think you are missing a big piece of the puzzle.
1) If you are a stay at home parent (even if it makes financial sense to), and you cannot afford tuition, then learn to homeschool. Its a skill that can be learnt. Are you telling me most mother’s are not equipped to teach their 6 year old basic chumash and math? If most people cannot do that, its very sad. Also, older children can help out with the basics as well. Just saying “its not practical” is wrong – people don’t think its practical and therefore won’t implement it.
2) We have all upped our “basic necessities” to include plenty of things that are not necessary. If someone has nice jewelry, shouldn’t they sell it to cover tuition if its really pikuach nefesh? Is owning a gold necklace more important than tuition? True, its hard to sell your possesions…I know it would be hard for me. It doesn’t make it wrong.
3) I never said people don’t want to pay. But if they cannot pay, then they have to figure out alternate plans. A friend of mine works seperate shifts from her husband to make ends meet. Its tough on their marriage and their kids – the parents don’t see each other much. But the extra influx of cash, without having to pay for babysitting costs, really helps them pay their bills.
4) NO TO VACATIONS. I don’t care who you are – if you cannot afford basic tuition, then a vacation, no matter how much you need to recharge your batteries, is a luxury you cannot afford. We need to go back to basics.
5) Are people buying new clothing for yom tov? Probably yes. Is it fair to spend that few hundred dollars for the family (unless the clothing is falling apart)?
6) It seems to me that the issue is lack of donations to BYoBP because of the economy, not so much the parents who have lost jobs. If that is the case, then something needs to be done to figure out why such a high amount of people cannot afford tuition. Is it kollel? Size of the families? I don’t care who you are – if tuition is $4,000/child and you have 10 children, unless you are Nelson Rockefeller, that hurts.
I live in NJ so I am not really out of town, but Brooklyn schools aren’t my local schools.
mazal77
Member
A friend who is trying to get her daughter in this high school told me that this same school, is charging $20,000, for the year. Oh, they’ll knock off $4,000.00 if you pay in cash and in full. She isn’t sure where her daughter will be going for High School yet!!
This most likely is ribis d’oraisa. I certainly would not want a child of mine educated in a school run this way.
Joseph:
1: You are confusing the chiyuv not to accept Tzedaka Vs. the Chiyuv to give. One who is poor is Chayiv not to rely on the Tzibbur if at all possible (ex. “Asai Shabbtcha Chol V’al Yitztarich L’briyos”, “Lo Ledai Matnas Basar V’dam”, etc.). However, if needed (or they choose not to fulfill their chiyuvim), I must give (prioritizing according to halacha).
2: The gemorah Kesubos 49b explicity says that one who does not provide for their children should be donounced in the streets, saying “A raven provides for its children and this man does not”. The Rambam in Ishus:
??? ???? ???? ??????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ?? ????. ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????; ??? ?? ???–?????? ??, ???????? ????, ??????? ??. ?? ?? ???–??????? ???? ?????? ???????, ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ???? ???, ???? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??.
I’m not saying this should be done (Ask a Rav:-), but being that tuition is a “basic need”, don’t say one burns for following the Gemarah. (Emotional Judaism?)
SJS: And who is going to homeschool the 16 year old child of working parents on Gemorah, Tosfos, and the meforshim? And for the chemistry regents?
gsvra, I’m afraid you are confused. An administrator who publicly embarrasses a child will burn. Even if the child’s parent’s were blessed by Hashem to be amongst the aniyei Yisroel who haven’t sufficient income and assets.
From another website:
Joseph:
Obviously you are. Please stop making assumptions based on your own feelings (WE ARE NOT REFORM JEWS!) and ask a Rav (I’m not saying you can, just that a Shaila should be asked) if you can embarass a parent so that they should take care of their children (or read the Rambam and then ask). Also please define an “Ani” (which is part of your confusion). That is a Halachic term with Halachic Nafki Miena.
Did you speak to your rav about what you need to give up in order to pay tuition?
Joseph:
I apologize, I think my prior post is too harsh. What I mean to say is that the Gemarah & Rambam should at least create a Safek in your mind that you should not tell people they will burn if they embarass those who do not take care of their children, and perhaps it is even Muttar. The school should (IMHO) have an unbiased Rav whom they should ask, and exhaust all other options (and perhaps warn the parent), also based on the Rav.
Joseph, if families would save the money from homeschooling their younger children, then they would be able to more afford tuition for older children.
In addition, they could hire a tutor (lets say a Kollel guy) to devote a few hours a day. That would be significantly cheaper than paying a regular school and the older children would still be learning (as would the kollel guy). As for chemistry and other harder subjects, they could either hire a tutor, find someone competent in the community or find another creative solution.
If both parents are working, this is obviously even harder.
We cannot maintain a system that relies on too few to help too many. And that is what the current system seems like to me. Can Hashem provide money at any point? Sure, but relying on that is neglecting your hishtadlut.
Now that we are in a fiscally tough times, we have to have a tighter rein on our money and where we spend it. Prioritize prioritize prioritize.
What is better,
to support married kollel couples or our own children in kollel?
That vacation?
Going to the Catskills? (If anyone went and is not paying tuition- be ashamed.)
Or giving proper education to our children?
There must be a better way…Maybe if we set up a “no frills” school- strictly no frills…
No major trips, no fancy building or furniture, no new paint job every year. no huge bulletin boards ect. Why waste school money and time?
Books can be bought second hand- I know a frum teacher who wanted new books (secular studies teacher) for her class and the school couldnt afford it so she got in touch with a teacher in a fancy secular private school who said that her students are required to buy their own books every year in high school so why not ask them to send it to you for free? This frum high school now got one year old books in amazing condition (ok they were highlighted and written in a bit, but pretty good for being free).
Teachers can be paid on time and tuition wont be that much compared to other schools.
agree
SJSinNYC:
“Can Hashem provide money at any point? Sure, but relying on that is neglecting your hishtadlut”.
Are we not skirting the issue?
Hishtadlut meaning ??? getting a job that you should have prepared for in your early twenties, but did not, because of the current inculcation of most of our Yeshivos (where boys are encouraged not to), and later in married life, when children arrive, it’s no longer doable, in most cases.
gavra,
Is it necessary to ask a shaila if you can beat your wife? Whatever the answer to that question is, is the answer if it is necessary to ask a shaila if you can publicly embarass a child.
What crime did the child commit?? Being the child of poor parents, who through divine will could not afford tuition? Is this how Klal Yisroel treats each other, let alone its children?
Public embarrassment is equivalent to murder. See Bava Metzia 59a, Berachos 43b, Sotah 10b, and Kesubos 67b how far (i.e. giving up ones life) one is mandated to avoid embarrassing another.
Joseph, I agree with you (what you said, maybe I wouldn’t go as far as the burning part) but would you like to go tell that to a principal who has no money to open a school for the year? What else is he supposed to do for the parents who have (I repeat, HAVE) but don’t pay?
kapusta, I am specifically talking about parents who don’t have.
(In any event, remember when one is mandated to die rather than embarrass their fellow. That should teach us a lesson or two about embarrassing a Yid b’rabim.)
In my opinion, not only are the children innocent, and therefore undeserving of embarassment, the parents are as well, by being led into dependence on others.
BS”D
Joseph:
Who is talking about the children? I am discussing the parents. The children are an effect that Halacha is not concerned with.
I bring Halacha, you are still bringing feelings. Next someone (not you) is going to tell me that they FEEL for certain people who practice To’eiva and they should allowed to be like anyone else? Perhaps we shouldn’t EMBARASS them and allow them to marry (an extreme example)?
We have a Torah. The Gemorah, Rambam, Tur & Shulchan Aruch all say to EMBARASS the man who does not take care of his children. The Shulchan Aruch adds that for a rich man, we take from him Ba’al Korcho. (Even Haezer 71). (I apologize if I am once again too harsh)
I am going to add that this is similar to Shaul, when he was unable to go against the people due to his Yiddishe Middos. It is not an easy thing to go against our inner nature, like when we will have to wipe out Amalek and kill even the animals. We will do it, as the Torah says you must. We have the same concept here.
Kapusta: who doesn’t have something? Why is someone not Mechuyav to sell their silver liechter or engagement ring (or at least ask a Rav!) to pay tuition?
gavra: Check the Gemorah’s I sourced.
I am discussing the children. Where do you get <i>”The children are an effect that Halacha is not concerned with.”</i> ? Where did you pick that liner up from?
Joseph: From the gemorah I brought, as well as the halacha.
I’m not arguing that embarassing someone is not terrible, of course it is, but LaKol Z’man V’eis. I would not have believed it if I didn’t see the halacha myself.
Besides, we are getting off the point. Have you asked the Rav what you are Mechuyav to give up to pay tuition? I asked you to do so last week.
GAW:”We have a Torah. The Gemorah, Rambam, Tur & Shulchan Aruch all say to EMBARASS the man who does not take care of his children.”
I want you to find ONE Gadol who will encourage the embarassment of a parent who can’t pay tuition. Never ever.
As far as selling Leichter, the heaviest and most exquisite of Leichters, would rarely yield $1000. on the used silver market, which is less than a fraction of a year of tuition for ONE of their children. And, rarely do the needy parents have the most exquisite of Leichters or jewelry for that matter.
AZOI.IS:
Very Good. You have found the fallacy of the argument.
No Gadol will embarass anyone to pay tuition because:
1: Tuition is not a neccessity
2: Tuition is covered anyway by the community
3: Embarassing someone who has no skills, no education and a large family (all by choice and recomendation of these same Gedolim) will not help them pay. The gemorah is dealing with someone who would be able to pay if they were embarassed into doing so, while these people B’derech Teva have no possibility of taking care of their children, so what would be the point of embarassing them!
In the meantime, we are losing those who refuse to pay higher tuition costs due to them subsidizing others (the parents are sending to public school where they may go off, CV) and the children who have a much better chance (if not as good as in BY) in public school (like those girls from BYOBP) are being cried over. Cry for those who are being lost, not those who are not.
GAW- wait a minute wait a minute!!!
1. Education is a necessity. At least homeschooling is pikuach nefesh, if one cannot go to the standard type of school. So if you wont homeschool, tuition is a necessity!
2. Why should the entire community cover the tuition “anyways”? Everyone must do what they can!
3. It is a personal choice not to work or get an education past high school. It is a choice and they need to live with it. Personal responsibility- I should not have to pay for someone else’s selfishness. Why should I pay for an education (college, skill or trade school ect) when everyone else would pay my bills when I can’t? If you wont get an education, then you wont be able to afford to raise a large family. I am terrible at transliteration but you all know the quote: Dont place your chumros at the expense of others. You dont want to go to school and get a real job (chumra, not a halacha) so you go on the public dole. They made it so that they have no ability to take care of their kids. It isnt “bderech teva”- it is selfishness. They want to do what they want to do and they want the community to take care of them. Personal Responsibility!!!!
**
Gavrah,?
There is one very practical reason why very few tuition committee members would ever be so cold to ?follow your or the Rabbi’s ALEGEDLY halachic interpretations. That reason is, the gemarrah says a ?person should always greet a poor person with a smile and not embarrass them, because the way you ?treat the poor is how your grandchildren will be treated when they are in need. Any school can ?demand people to sell everything they own in order to pay killer tuitions, BUT at what cost to the ?mechutzaf who demanded it??
The only reason why tuition in the area where parents are willing to send their kids to public school is ?so high is because the schools are trying to display an exclusive image. The board and principal who ?denied the child access to school have to daven that by next Rosh Hashanah they are still in the ?position to deny Jewish children a Jewish education. ?If a person is blessed by Hashem with money and power it is to help a fellow Jew, if they don’t use it properly it WILL be taken away.
BS”D
havesomeseichel:
We agree (at least on #2 & #3, #1 is questionable) I think you read what I wrote the wrong way.
artchill:
1: I have not said anything regarding the Rav except to ask for his opinion. Its bad enough how people are misquoted.
2: What is the case of the “poor person”? I agree for those who can not raise their children (illness or death CV) then the community should support them, as they are Yesomim. Someone whose parents are known not to care for their children (not pay child support, perhaps someone who got no education & does not want to earn anything) also has a Din of a Yasom. Anyone else should get an education (their children are Yidden just like anyone else), but must sacrifice everything they are required to do AL PI Halacha before they can take the Tzedaka from others subsidizing them.
And take a step back. If everyone paid full tuition, there would be no need for “killer tuitions”. And I am not familiar with the exact case of the frum children going to public school, just that it is due to lack of funds. And truthfully at first glance, I would sooner help them than BYOBP, as they (the “more left” ones going to public school) are more likely to go off C”V than a BYOBP girl who goes to public school.
HSS:” I should not have to pay for someone else’s selfishness.”
If you choose to live in a frum community, with many Yeshiva students who were coaxed by their Yeshivas to remain in Yeshiva longer, and not worry about Parnasa, are you then going to tell these same Yeshivos’ Hanhala to not allow entrance to their children at very reduced rates, because their parents were “role model students” and took the Yeshivos’ advice?
The parents weren’t selfish at all. They were being “Mekabel”s.
The Yeshivos’ Hanhala would then be talking out of two sides of their mouths.
AZOI.IS:
Which makes those who started it responsible.
It seems from what you are saying that the yeshivos only have look in the mirror when they try to find someone to blame?
One additional point. Perhaps a named scholarship may be in order, for those Yesomim whose parents refuse to/can not in any way pay tuition? This is done in many colleges (named scholarships for underprivliged students) and is something to look at.
Azoi.is- then the hanhala should find a way to pay for these kids’ education and not force it on the rest of the klal. Person A stayed in kollel and now cannot support his family’s needs. Person B left kollel/yeshiva to get a job/education for a job and now works. He can meet his family’s needs but no extras. Should person B put themselves into debt to support A? At times one must leave kollel or work an extra shift to be able to pay for their own kids’ needs. Person B shouldnt have to take a second job to pay for person A.
GAW- What I meant by “anyways” is that each person should do their best for their own family. that is what we really disagree on… If I cant afford (and no- my family didnt go to the mountains this summer, do not own a vacation home and didnt go on any real vacation this summer. no one is the age to go to sleep away camp to be honest.) It should not be required for others to pay for my tuition or for anyone elses, unless they can afford it easily and want to give it to that tzeddaka. No one is “required” to give tzeddaka to any one institution as long as they do “family before others, their community before outside ect”. I think I misread part of it but still we disagree on some things…
BYOBP is the classic case of financial suicide. They threw themselves into the situation by themselves. They had a great thing going. Then they chose to improve their product by building during a time of shifting demographics and economic environment. But, instead of waiting for the pledge money to cash, they chose to spend based on promises. That is financial suicide and it is very hard to drum up rachmanus for, especially with the economic situation.
Regarding tuition, tuition is an arbitrary figure meant to challenge the wealthy to step up.
Schar melamdim which is all required by halachah (not a benefit package, perks, etc.) is a fraction of tuition demanded. A rebbe and secular studies teacher combined salary is on average 45K. Divide that among the 20 students in class and you get a fee of $2,250 for tuition.
havesomeseichel:
I don’t disagree with anything you just said (?)
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