Budget Crisis! Bais Yaakov of Boro Park Cannot Open Yet This Year

GAW- you didnt answer my point. You skirted the question by saying that 10-20% is usual. I disagree, especially in today’s economy where these things are not done “normally”. I said that the tuition breaks should be based on NEED, not on the job someone might have. Someone could be in chinuch but makes a lot more than someone who has a regular job. Type of profession does not necessarily equate with a certain pay scale. Everyone should need to pay the most they can afford and should not get discounts based on who they are or what their job is.

SJS- homeschooling should be seen as a viable option for families that cannot afford tuition or for areas in which there are no schools. All you need is a teacher and a few kids within the same grade-range and a syllabus. 3-4 grade can be together, 5-6th, and 7-8th as well. You set aside half the day for kodesh classes and half for chol. Its like a normal school but tuition is less- no overhead. If every family involved is teaching either kodesh or chol for a grade, then no money needs to be exchanged. If one parent is not, than you need to work out a system. Everyone needs to pay “X” amount, but if you teach a grade, it is deducted. The money that comes in from the non-teachers is split evenly amongst all teachers. You dont need a seperate teacher for math and english, rather the same teacher teaches all the chol classes. Same for kodesh.

Check with the government in your area and find out how to set up such a program. I know someone who did it (not from NY) and they found it rewarding- they taught their kids and knew how much they knew. There was less wasted time explaining the material over and over when it only is needed for one student. There was less busy work. There were smaller classes and the kids got more attention.

havesomeseichel:

I (in general) view yeshiva like any business, in which there is professional courtesy that is not based on need. SJS is correct that it presumes the owner is turning a sufficent profit. If there is no profit (such as most if not all yeshivos) I hear cutting out professional courtesy.

I actually think tuition breaks should be based on willingness to send to yeshiva (worth of the education), that those who would send to public school should pay less (in order to keep their children in yeshiva) than those who would never do so (and therefore will pay or raise whatever is asked of them). That would be a different and new thread, as well as too radical to implement.

Cost of living is far higher in NY, according to government data.

I would think that it would be very difficult for folks to compare

the economic situation of NY schools tho those outside. there are a great

number of variables to take into account, aside from the relative cost of living:

property taxes

payroll taxes

supply and demand (is that school the only option for that community)

Just to name a few.

Joseph-Kosher food is more expensive in out of town areas. So are sefarim, tziyus clothing shops, frum items… many are shipped from NY. In some areas, housing is also more expensive.

Jothar- I am not saying homeschooling is right for everyone. I know people who were (only frum school closed down) and they turned out fine. It could be the best things for some students- personal attention, smaller classes, the subject matter is better molded for the kids ect. It can work best if you do it with small groups of children, not just a single family. That way there is still some interpersonal contact and skills can be learned. Many times in the larger classes, kids are left out and grow up feeling insecure because if they arent the best at something, (or someone special’s son or daughter) they are not noticed or picked for something. This goes for the class play, the song and dance,to be the speaker at the class presentation, to be head of something, to get called on in class. They dont learn skills that way either. They learn to sulk, be silent and to not volunteer for something because they wont be picked anyways.

There are exceptions to every rule. I feel bad about the kid who was brainwashed, as you say Jothar, that this had to happen. But many people who speak about their own experiences share positive thoughts. They end up smarter, more knowledgeable, more on top of their work (depending on the program they might get a certain amount of work per week and as soon as they finished they were done and were able to go out and play), more self-confident.

Havesomeseichel:

“Joseph – Kosher food is more expensive in out of town areas. So are sefarim, tziyus clothing shops, frum items… many are shipped from NY. In some areas, housing is also more expensive.”

I think Joseph was absolutely correct here. Most out of town areas are NOT more expensive than NY – avg NY property taxes, housing costs, local taxes ALONE wipe out incrementally higher costs for kosher food. Plus, it depends on your lifestyle – yes, if you eat steak and potatoes every night it may cost more for kosher food. But housing alone can cost at least $100,000 * mortgate rate less over a 30 year loan, outside NY. NYS/NYC and NJ have some of the highest labor rates in the country, making many things here way more expensive (home/auto maintenance is one example that comes to mind). Those two states also have two of the highest property, state, and local tax rates in the country. States like Texas (with flourishing Jewish communities in Dallas and Houston) and Florida have a state income tax rate of 0%, alongside (generally) lower property taxes. I guesstimate it could cost anywhere from $15K-$35K less ANNUALLY to live outside NY, depending where, (save LA or Chicago) for your average frum NYer family.

I agree with GAW as far the the “clean slate reorganization” goes. Put them in a sort of chapter 11 where all expenses are freshly scrutinized by outsiders and new procedures put in place. Professional accountants can see things that untrained Yeshiva personnel cannot. This is not a knock on yeshiva personnel, the same way it’s not a knock that brain surgeons don’t know rocket science. It’s a completely separate discipline. Plus, old schools and businesses have a certain “set in their ways” approach, similar to old GM. A ” Chapter 11″- type approach, done with askanim and rabbonim, might save the school. I know of a yeshiva in the 5 Towns which was turned around once they brought in a professional accountant. When it’s a choice between closing down or reorganizing, it becomes a lot easier to get rid of the “chessed” employee who does nothing but waste time and get a paycheck. The OU cleaned house a few years ago. I have a relative who works in a beis Yaakov which could use a bit of a house cleaning. I hear about these batlanish employees all the time. The tzibbur has a right to make sure mamon hekdesh isn’t wasted. I have no idea what byobp is like. But I’m sure professional accountants can help like they did the other school.

Jothar, that’s a wonderful idea. I fully support it – and I would love to help implement it. But why shouldn’t all schools be able to benefit from professionals? From my understanding, most schools could use a healthy dose of reality when it comes to hiring, firing and setting wages (not to mention treasury issues and purchase orders). I am sure that with proper cost controls, the schools could actually stay above water even if they would only charge $11,000 per child (haha).

enlightened jew- NY isnt the most expensive. you havent done enough research…. I see you have not mentioned CA, specifically LA (1st big out of town frum community I thought of after NY, NJ and TX which you mentioned) … in LA no house can be found (even small ones) for 100,000…. not even 300,000… in the regular side of town it cant be found for 500,000… so what are you talking about with housing prices being “expensive” in NY???? And no, you dont get a pool with that money. those prices are for 2 bedroom nothings… apartments are also expensive. sales tax is almost 9%. income tax is also staggering. CA is a larger state than NY so “average state taxes ” are not that high but they arent charging the farms what they charge LA city! I know people who live there and it is troubling for them. It is way more expensive to live there than it is to live in NY. But if a person can move to a cheaper place, shouldnt they do that rather than collect money from the city? I am not forcing anyone out, but if someone can help themselves earn a decent living shouldnt they try to not be a collector??

squeak, agreed 100%. GM needed help for years with its antiquated structure, but nothing could be done until it was do-or-die. Many schools could benefit from outside assistance.

There are 3 possibilities for BYoBP:

1. Let them close, free-market style. Unfortunately, it is too big to fail, though it never should have gotten to that point. Furthermore, the “let them all lose their jobs and disrupt the students’ life” is not what being rachmanim bnei rachmanim is about.

2. Give them an unconditional bailout, which is what MESILA recommends against. You’re just shoving money into a money pit, and the problem will resurface in the future.

3. Give them a conditional bailout. Clean up the detritus, and make new policies to prevent this from happening. Furthermore, any bloated salaries should be cut down to a more manageable size, and make long-needed personnel changes that were politically incorrect when the school was managing. It’s better for 3 people to be fired than for dozens to be unemployed and dozens of kids be left without a school.

Is there anyone among us CR-mates who thinks, that despite the fact that “BYOBP-type” financially able people have mostly left BP, and more are moving as time goes on, and no new “BYOBP-type” financially able people are expected to move into the area, that the school can continue for much longer, barring some miracle, or new Donor?

If yes, how?

Thank you squeak.

AZ.I: Then the Bais Yaakov caters to more than just B.P. litvish families. It serves a wider geographic area than just B.P., and it serves the litvish, yeshivish, chasidish, etc. communities.

Joseph- do you have any better idea than to just give money and hope they use it properly? What good would throwing money into a sinking pit do? If they dont correct the problem, money wont help. Its like welfare, in a sense- give them the money when they ask and without time limits and they will never look for a job. If you were offered money for free, would you ever look for a better job or fix the problems that are causing you to suffer?

Jothar, I heard some data recently that almost all the non-Chasidish Yesivos (and BY’s) in Brooklyn are shrinking, apparently due to the fact that the younger crowd doesn’t have a lot of room to grow in Brooklyn and are moving out.

Seems that BYOBP is the place to go (according to the Hamodia) for those who have difficulty paying, from all the neighboring areas (900 out of the present 2100 are from Flatbush). They’re called on by Rabbonim to take in girls, and get Brachos from the Rabbonim, which Rabbi Shapiro says don’t get accepted for deposit at the banks.

If only there would be a way to increase earning potential of these parents.

HSS, is it possible that many of the 900 from Flatbush (where there are plenty of other schools) and those from other areas than BP, choose to travel to BYOBP because they get a good deal there?

It happens to be a very well run school, but there are other very well run schools in Brooklyn. Rabbi Shapiro claims his tuition is lower than most Bais Yaakovs. That has to be at least part of the attraction.

havesomeseichel:

and embarrass those who can’t pay?

I mean it ma sound like a good financial plan, but can you imagine the girls who have to leave and go to another school because “we cant’ pay so we’re being split up”?

Joseph, “Many students travel between Boro Park and Flatbush for school. That is hardly unique to BYoBP.”

Almost half is a lot more than many. It’s 900:2100.

I’ve spoken to many Flatbush parents who have moved there from BP, and they hesitate to send their daughters to BP schools, after the move, because of the problem of neighborhood friends on Shabbos. I still think that many come to BYOBP for the lower tuition.

The problem is many families can not afford the tuition payments. That is the bottom line. What is the solution??

Joseph: “How much is the tuition (approx.) at BYoBP, and how much is it (on average) at other neighboring schools?”

Rabbi Shapiro is quoted in the Hamodia as saying:

“Most Bais Yaakov schools start at $5,000- $7,000. I’m not talking about Queens, which is $9,000 plus. Over here we’re averaging roughly $4,000 per child. And with so many unable to pay and kolel yungeleit, who we’ve been accomodating for all these years… It’s very hard.”

Seems like they have more than their fair share of non and low payers. Probably a disproportionate amount of parents with large families and little income.

to Azolis,

“Most Bais Yaakov schools start at $5,000- $7,000. I’m not talking about Queens, which is $9,000 plus. Over here we’re averaging roughly $4,000 per child. And with so many unable to pay and kolel yungeleit, who we’ve been accomodating for all these years… It’s very hard.”

Unfortunately, with the burst of the economic bubble, the community can no longer support the model of everyone who wants can join a kolel and be supported.

In Europe that concept didn’t exist because they couldn’t afford it. The community supported only those whose learning and character marked them as the future leaders.Everyone else went to work to support them ( while also continuing to learn ). At $4,000 a child, you can’t pay decent wages( let alone provide health insurance ) to the teachers, so in effect you’re asking them to support the kolel families too.

“and embarrass those who can’t pay?”

So the choice is:

1) Put some people in a slightly embarrasing situation (although, most of the times you can figure out who can’t pay anyway based on parents occupation, number of kids in the family etc. Its not always, but its fairly easy.)

2) Sacrifice 2100 students.

Which is preferable?

Education is really more of a privelege than a right – especially because most parents are trained well enough to give their kids the basics.

Joseph- Oh, you can instead call parents and tell them not to send their children to school because they cannot pay. Some schools are not letting kids into classes if their parents were unable to pay. And that is not embarrassing?