Bain Adam L'chaveiro Vs. Bain Adam L'makom

Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Bain Adam L'chaveiro Vs. Bain Adam L'makom

Viewing 5 posts - 51 through 55 (of 55 total)
1 2
  • Author
    Posts
  • February 15, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #740753
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Listen, before deviating more from our own original statements, let’s restate our opinion and our understanding of each other’s:

    You say, Bein Adam Lachaveiro Mitzvos are commanded to us because of the benefit they have to your friend or to society. You also agree that since Hashem wants us to do this, it is therefore a Bein Adam Lamakom. You also seem to add some mystical merit in it all.

    I say, all that applies to behavior that is not mentioned in the Torah. What is in the Torah explicitly, is not merely a nice behavior. You don’t get Malkos for making fun of your friend but you do get Malkos for charging Ribbis. The purpose of Middos Tovos, too, is to be wholesome people that are able to be a dwelling for the Sh’china.

    When we say, Derech Eretz Kadma Latorah, that is because it is preparing the person to be able to go to the next step. Derech Eretz Kadma Latorah is not talking about Mitzvos that are in the Torah, explicitly. These are real Mitzvos.

    February 15, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #740754
    Lomed Mkol Adam
    Member

    Haleivi: “You don’t get Malkos for making fun of your friend but you do get Malkos for charging Ribbis.”

    Making fun of your friend is a Lav in the Torah-Ona’as Divorim, not any different than the Lav of Ribbis. Malkus is not a measuring stick to determine the severity of each individual mitzvah.

    Demonstrating with your actions a natural love to your fellow, is also a Mitzvas Asaih in the Torah-“V’Uhavta L’reiacha Kamoacha. So is the act of demonstrating natural compassion-“V’Halachta B’drachav-Mah Hu Rachum Af Ata Rachum”.

    The mitzvah of Hashavas Aveida in the Torah entails a simple natural meaning-demonstrating care/concern for your fellow; and also an individual mystical essence which Hashem created for it individually. This is what Chaza”l in Pirkei Avos mean when they said “Hevei Zuhir B’Mitzvah Kala K’Bchamura She’ain Ata Yodea Matan Sechara Shel Mitzvos”-meaning each Mitzvah Act of the Torah carries within its own unique mystical essence, hence the reward of each is mitzvah is different in shamayim.

    Pirkei Avos discusses only ‘Character’ not actual behavior/ma’asim. However, through understanding Ratzon Hashem as expressed through the Mitzvos Bain Adam L’chaveiro in the Torah, we can conclude that an ultimate wish of Hashem is that we be good hearted people in nature. This is what the Mishna means when it defines Avrohom Avinu as a person with Ayin Tov, Lev Tov and Nefesh Shefaila as opposed to Bilam Harasha-meaning that this is one of the resons why he found favor in Hashem’s eyes and was chosen by Hashem.

    February 15, 2011 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #740755
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It’s one thing if you’d be busy with the Mitzvas Assei of Ve’ahavta Larei’acha. But your main point is that these Mitzvos are there for the same reason the Greeks preached them.

    Ono’as Dvarim is not a De’oraisa, but I can agree that it’s not a good example because it would be a Lav She’ein Bo Maasa.

    Hashavas Aveida is the Din, it is not a just another implementation of being a nice guy. In fact the laws of Hashavas Aveida contradict don’t follow through with the rules of being a nice guy. Chazal had to say that there is also the other, general, point of doing what is right, and we return even what wouldn’t have to be returned according to the Halacha.

    Therefore, if it wouldn’t have been a Din Torah, it wouldn’t be written out in the Torah. It would have been one more thing we would do as part of Ve’asisa and Ve’ahavta.

    February 15, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #740756
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You speak of Taamei Hamitzvos as if they are an afterthought sprinkled on top to add some spice. I told you that you seperate the simple meaning from the deeper ramification and you denied that. I’m not talking about Remazim or corelations. I’m talking of the deeper impact of these Mitzvos which entail an understanding of what a Yid is and what his money is and what boundary you are breaching by cheating. Deeper does not mean a Mashal. Nor does it mean a cute Remez. Did you ever hear a deep explanation to something you thought was simple? Was it something different or just deeper? Deep is a dimension other than length and width.

    February 15, 2011 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #740757
    Lomed Mkol Adam
    Member

    Haleivi: I never separated the deeper ramifications of mitzvos bain adam l’chaveiro from their simple meaning, neither did I chas v’shalom refer to the mystical aspect of these mitzvos as an afterthought/sprinkled spice. I believe that since Hashem gave us the Torah with its Taryag Mitzvos, therefore when we do Hashavas Aveida [as defined by Halacha] we are accomplishing deep deep dimensions in the spiritual world which one cannot fathom. This is because by Kabalas Hatorah on Har Sinai, Hashem gave a spiritual essence/mechanism to the actions of a Jew when he practices a mitzvah [and aveira].

    However, this does not negate the fact that the Torah obviously also meant the simple meaning of these mitzvos, and that is to act as a naturally kind and nice person to your fellow, which you consider Greek philosophy. We know “Ein Mikra Yotzei M’eidei Pishuto”, so peshat and soid do not contradict one another.

    If the Dor Hamabul or the Dor of Sedom would have acted like Greeks preached/practiced, then Hashem would not have punished them; after all their punishment was given solely because of their mean/cruel behavior to one another (Dor Hambul was Gezel).

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 5 posts - 51 through 55 (of 55 total)
1 2
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.