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I am dating a girl whose parents became Frum along as the daughters became frum. The home was always kosher but they became shabbat observant and Shomer Mitzvahs. Would she be less likely to fry out?
I don’t think this is a question anyone can answer without knowing the girl.
Take a survey and run the numbers.
I love how people ask these questions to people in the coffee room. You need to go to your local Rav to get the proper eitzah, and what his psak is
there are no guarantees that people will remain frum. Never heard of a frum person deciding to become oisfrum sometime during the marriage? Only you can determine how strong her frumkeit is now, and like anything else in marriage, you have to consider this aspect of the person.
How about discussing this with the one person whose answer is most SHAYACH – THE GIRL!
Why? Do you want to fry out and take her along with you?
q
The same question can more or less be asked about every baal teshuva.
I would think she would be stronger . because she was not born into it so it is new and exciting . We FFB tend to do things out of habit more than love of Hashem.
Binyamin
His Rav would know the answer to the question as well as any of us. Her rav has a CHANCE of being able to answer, but I doubt he would no either.
It’s questions and threads like this that are Machti Es HaRabbim and CH”V cause Baalei T’shuvah to be Chozer. This shouldn’t exist.
Sam: If the phenomenon of bt’s being more likely to fry-out than non-bts is real, isn’t it legitimate to take into account that fact for shidduch considerations and discuss the reality with others?
Joseph: Absolutely not. Unless someone is in a situation where there is a serious chance of becoming not Frum, who the heck cares? You’re gonna date this person. You will speak to them and talk with them. If you’re concerned, don’t marry them. If you’re not, great.
And even if there might be some people with tendencies to leaving Frumkeit, there is no reason to push them off the Derech with two hands by having disgusting conversations like this.
You know, Joseph, it aint the topic that is the problem, it’s the attitude. Coming on here and saying a BT is likely to go off as if it’s expected is disgusting. If you want to discuss it respectfully as a concept, then ask how we can be sure someone is secure in their frumkeit if they are new and being considered for marriage.
Sam is right. If we cannot speak in a way that is encouraging and supportive, we are in danger of turning them away. And honestly, some of the attitudes turn me away and I’ve been frum all my life.
Of course being respectful seems, from what I read on another thread, to be the reason the CR isn’t exciting anymore but I’m willing to risk it.
Sam2 and Syag…, 100%.
Syag: I just asked that question without taking a position since I wasn’t sure which is the proper path. But your approach, which permits respectful public discussion on the topic, seems to disagree with Sam’s approach which insists on no discussion – and the deletion of any comments already made on this issue.
Unless I misunderstood one or both of you.
Joseph,
I just asked that question without taking a position since I wasn’t sure which is the proper path.
A disingenuous response. You didn’t ask a question, you made a statement:
The same question can more or less be asked about every baal teshuva.
Syag Lchochma,
If you want to discuss it respectfully as a concept, then ask how we can be sure someone is secure in their frumkeit if they are new and being considered for marriage.
This is absolutely the way to go about this discussion.
These are my thoughts on the question.
1. Is he/she well integrated into a frum community?
2. Does he/she have an open relationship with a rav, and feel comfortable bringing shailos to a rav?
3. Can he/she separate Judaism from individual Jews, so that cv’s an encounter with a rude frum person doesn’t shake his/her beliefs to the core?
4. Does he/she have frum friends, or does he/she interact primarily with non-frum friends?
5. Is he/she comfortable with saying “I don’t know, I need to ask”?
If the answer is yes to these questions, then I don’t think there is any more “fry out” risk with the BT then there would be with anyone else.
Avram: You’re wrong. The first quote of mine you cited (made yesterday) was *only* referring to my immediate previous post addressed to Sam’s point. The second comment you quoted (which was my first comment here and was made over a month ago and unrelated to my subsequent comments) was addressing the OP’s comment. (In that the op’s question isn’t limited to a bt who used to only keep kosher but could similarly be asked on a bt who didn’t keep anything.)
Joseph,
Ok, I can accept that. For what purpose did you make the extension in your original post at all, however?
It was simply a thought that occurred to me that the kosher keeping aspect probably wasn’t a factor in answering the OP’s question.
What brought that thought to mind was remembering that Feivel (aka Mod-80), who said he’s a bt, opined that it is a legitimate consideration in shidduchim whether a bt is more likely to fry-out. (Thinking about it now, I’m starting to wonder if it was actually about considering a shidduch with a Ger that he made this point about.)
It’s from six and half years ago and I was going on memory, so you’ll have to cut some slack about the bt/ger switcharoo. 😉
“1. Is he/she well integrated into a frum community?
2. Does he/she have an open relationship with a rav, and feel comfortable bringing shailos to a rav?
3. Can he/she separate Judaism from individual Jews, so that cv’s an encounter with a rude frum person doesn’t shake his/her beliefs to the core?
4. Does he/she have frum friends, or does he/she interact primarily with non-frum friends?
5. Is he/she comfortable with saying “I don’t know, I need to ask”?”
Why do these questions apply more to a Baal Teshuvah than to anyone?
Sam2, they don’t!
Please don’t look for offense where none is being offered.
I can’t speak for AvramMD (obviously) but I don’t think these questions are meant to offer guidance only with regard to BT’s.
Insofar as the inquiry was made regarding a particular person JK is dating, AvramMD gave an answer to the OP’s question about a BT.
With the possible exception of #3 (which may apply more to a BT as the case described is more likely to have a negative effect on someone joining the frum community from afar) these are all truly excellent questions to consider when looking for a someone to join with in building a bayis ne’eman b’yisroel.
Golfer: See the OP. Someone is assuming there’s a difference.
golfer,
Thank you, you understood and explained my sentiments exactly. I was responding to the question as phrased best I think by Syag Lchochma: how we can be sure someone is secure in their frumkeit, e.g., not going to “fry out”. This is universal, not just about BTs. I probably should have written that explicitly.
I think we are arguing apples and oranges here. Nobody said we shouldn’t have a discussion about whether or not it is important to assess someones commitment to Torah. The objection, I thought, was more about the expectations of the commitment of a BT.
The op seemed to think being a BT might make him/her MORE secure but Sam was responding to Joseph’s post which sounded more like a statement that people generally expect they won’t be
If the phenomenon of bt’s being more likely to fry-out … is real, (I read his if as since, perhaps he did not mean it that way)
Seeing as negative expectations of people can have very negative effects, this statement can be destructive.
There is no reason we can’t have a conversation/discussion/argument about knowing when people are ready or knowing if people are committed, without making generalizations about what is “expected” from BT’s.
and just to make this personal,
I have written in the past (many threads ago) about how my husband was not only very newly frum, he wasn’t really even in a place I felt comfortable. I was dating guys who were full time in yeshiva and he had just started wearing a yarmulke months before. And he had not started wearing tzitzis yet. We worked together in a program for children with special needs and by the end of that month I knew somehow he was the needle in the haystack. We decided to get engaged without ever having dated.
To skip over the longer version, there was a lot of work to do to determine if I could possibly consider someone who still had a ways to go. Was he committed? Would he end up being who he planned to become? Could I wait patiently for certain points so he could adjust appropriately instead of jumping in with too much too fast?
These were some very valid questions and we worked very hard on finding the answers before getting engaged. It took a tremendous amount of self-awareness of who I was and where I was going as well.
In the end, he introduced me to aspects of our religion that never would have crossed the door in my religious education. So much of the spirituality that I never really learned about came from him. I am so much further along in my commitment to Torah than I would have even dreamed about if I had not married him.
Avram in MD: Great points applicable to anyone. Sincere Baalei Teshuva are usually stronger in their yiddishkeit and don’t take everything for granted.
Personally, out of the people I know that went off the derech, almost all were FFB’s. I think in many of those cases, everything was by rote and they didn’t appreciate what Torah Judaism really is.
I’m an FFB who grew up in Boro Park and it took a while to gain the appreciation that a Baal Teshuva often has.
If someone is solid in their yiddishkeit, the fact that they may be a Baal Teshuva shouldn’t be a factor. The case sited above makes it even more so, in that you wouldn’t have family conflict over religion that some Baaslei Teshuva, whose family weren’t supportive have.
It’s very nice that you dont want to talk negatively about BT’s but i dont think it’s a fair discussion when anyone who has the opinion that BT’s may have a higher risk in certain life areas is called a sicko.
Personally, i look up to BT’s and admire the tenacity they must have to go thru such a life altering change. I believe anybody who happens to meet a baal tshuva, even for a few short seconds, will walk away in awe and inspired in their own personal yidishkeit.
As some pointed out- where many of us only serve hashem thru rote, most BT’s have their entire heart body and soul in the avoda they do. This however can also lead to bumps in the road. When the spark, or explosion rather, of his connection to yidishkeit isnt there, or fizzles at times, it may be much harder to continue with his commitment than it would be for an FFB.
Oh, and i dont think anyone asked if they think theyl have troubles down the road would dream the answer would be yes.
I dunno Sam. I don’t think risks should be overstated, and if there are more precise risk factors, those should also be discussed. But I am not convinced that this is not something worth discussing. Is there any empirical evidence on point?
I’m not sure Sam thinks it shouldn’t be discussed at all, or thinks it shouldn’t be discussed in a public forum. There’s a huge difference.
What is your thought on that point, DY?
I probably lean towards not discussing it in a public forum, especially since, as I wrote, even if there were true generalizations, it would still be a case by case issue.
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