- This topic has 72 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I fail to understand why the opening poster was afraid to answer the campus Orthodox rabbi’s question truthfully. Surely the rabbi knows that there are broad ranges of opinion on kashrus and many different ways that frum Jews observe kashus. Her devious answer, in its way, is more insulting than a truthful answer, as it implies that the rabbi lacks the ability to understand her opinion and her practice of kashrus. And, of course, it only postpones the time when the opening poster has to come clean with the rabbi, as, sooner or later, he will invite the opening poster to his home for a Shabbos or chag meal. A truthful answer, if expressed sensibly and courteously, should not be offensive to the rabbi, or any other frum Jew.
zahavasdad,
DaasYochid answered a lot better than I could have. There must have been an assumption that something like iceberg lettuce would be used (not romaine or other greens), and cross contamination like what Syag Lchochma pointed out would be avoided. Dressing would also be an issue, as well as other common salad additives like crutons, hard boiled eggs, etc. Also, did your rav give you this psak just for the circumstance of your first day on the job business dinner, or did he say eating salads in non-kosher restaurants could be your modis operandi?
DaasYochid,
Avram, I thinking telling the rabbi a whole megillah about a policy not to eat in others’ homes unless she knows them well would insult him. At this point, I think the less said, the better.
You’re probably right about that in this case – what’s done is done, he’s probably not losing sleep over it, and nothing more needs to be said Saying something may even stir up issues that otherwise would not have arisen. I suggested saying something about a neutral policy in the case that the OP felt like she had to say something, but perhaps the same idea can be pared down with fewer words.
What approach would you recommend a person in this situation take before the fact, e.g., if you get invited to a meal, or asked if you’d eat at someone’s house? Do you think explaining a policy like I described would be a good idea (maybe the explanation can be shortened), or do you think just making circumstantial “sorry, I’m busy that day” refusals is good enough? The problem I see with circumstantial refusals is that sometimes the prospective host will become persistent in order to appear friendly (How about next week? No? Tuesday the 14th? No? Anytime in March?).
He did say no salad dressings. It was assumed this was for a one time event.
“I fail to understand why the opening poster was afraid to answer the campus Orthodox rabbi’s question truthfully.”
It simply seems that she did not want to embarrass him, especially in front of others. She got her point across nicely and apparently he understood. No need to doltishly say anything confrontational.
“A truthful answer if expressed sensibly and courteously, … “
That’s what she did.
The halachah is that if someone is a kosher eid you accept their kashrut — or at least their testimony as to what they have done in their kitchen. Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms. By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Sorry to be so blunt but this is the kind of mishigas that divides the Jewish people.
This was my real point here , Instead of of Poskin for myself or posting an opinion that I might think (I would have thought there was a major problem here) I asked a LOR and not a YCT (before anyone says he is) one either and its funny many here did not like the Psak .
I think the lesson here is dont assume anything, If you are in a circumstance, ASK and dont assume. Perhaps OP should have ASKED first
Response to Dr Hall:
“The halachah is that if someone is a kosher eid you accept their kashrut”
The OP trusts the guy when he expresses his beliefs, and she is not comfortable with his level of kashrut. Or you can say she does not trust him. Either way….
“Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community…. “
College campuses are not communities. If one is asked a student “where is your home?”, the student would likely say their home town, not the campus. Besides which, the community has no real religious leadership. Most American Orthodox rabbis – like the RCA, Aguda, and YI – don’t accept YCT semicha.
“…halachic norms.”
There are no norms on a college campus. You went to schools with large frum populations, Harvard or Hopkins, but most schools have only a handful of frum Jews – with a bunch of different levels. A handful of transients (and a pseudo-rabbi) are hardly a reason to change.
Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms. By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Where do you dream this stuff up?
So if I move to a town with only a Conservative shul then I become Conservative?
edited
Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms. By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Where do you dream this stuff up?
Actually this is the Halacha, However I dont think it applies after World War II. Before WW II if a jew from Poland moved to Turkey he was supposed to follow Sephardic customs. I think after WW II the communities were all broken up and reformed in the US and Israel for the most post
However if you moved to Amsterdam , you can wait 1 hour between milk and meat
Of course, and if you moved to Nazareth then you celebrated christmas
Avram in MD,
What approach would you recommend a person in this situation take before the fact, e.g., if you get invited to a meal, or asked if you’d eat at someone’s house?
Actually, what the OP did, albeit inadvertantly, was probably perfect. She changed the subject. No direct insult, but fairly obvious, so that she can stay on decent terms, yet not be asked again.
daasYochid etal- sorry for going awol. Mdg got me- thanks mdg for clarifying. I meant bashing yct and bashing this rabbi when noone knows who he is and if he is or isnt ‘reliable’.
I did not at all mean anything towards the OP.
And kavod- most agreed she did right declining the invitation, myself included, and even the way she did it. But many other posters and even some who did agree said that letting the rabbi know you wouldnt eat by him is a lack of kavod. Even if she would have told him straight out no, (assuming not embarrassing in front of others was a factor,) i dont understand why declining the invitation would be a lack of kavod. What’s improper about declining an invitation?
charliehall,
The halachah is that if someone is a kosher eid you accept their kashrut — or at least their testimony as to what they have done in their kitchen.
I don’t think the issue here is that the OP rejected the campus rabbi’s testimony of his kitchen kashrus. There was never an indication that the campus rabbi was deceitful about his standards. The issue is that the OP is uncomfortable with those standards.
Another halachah is that when you settle in a new community you accept its halachic norms.
This statement may be too general, and even so, the key word is halachic. Certainly if the OP felt that something counter to halacha was taking place, she shouldn’t adopt it. I would also argue that a college campus is not a community in the traditional sense where this halacha would apply.
By not doing these things you are following a different religion from Judaism.
Sorry to be so blunt but this is the kind of mishigas that divides the Jewish people.
I would imagine that in a popa_bar_abba YCT themed thread you would argue that placing people outside the bounds of Orthodox Judaism is divisive. It’s interesting that you are so quick to do it here. It’s also surprising to me that you would direct this kind of statement at a college student who is trying to uphold her religious standards.
I meant bashing yct and bashing this rabbi
It’s a mitzvah to bash yct. If this rabbi associates himself with yct, it’s a mitzvah to bash that association, and to point out the folly in looking to him for any sort of religious direction.
I would imagine that in a popa_bar_abba YCT themed thread you would argue that placing people outside the bounds of Orthodox Judaism is divisive. It’s interesting that you are so quick to do it here. It’s also surprising to me that you would direct this kind of statement at a college student who is trying to uphold her religious standards.
Avram, that was an impressively astute observation.
I have a basic question. I understand that you have what you consider to a high standard of kashrus. Why did you assume that the Hillel rabbi didn’t met them? I know folks who won’t eat in anyone’s house but there own. Is that your hanagah or your family’s hanhagah as well?
The topic of this thread touches on an issue with some Jewish campus organizations that I have had for some time. Some campus Jewish groups purport to welcome Jewish students of all backgrounds, but these groups seem to have more success in fostering a welcoming atmosphere for less observant students than for more observant students.
I have seen a campus Hillel facilitator work with students to add a Reform Friday night service in addition to the long standing Conservative one, but tell an Orthodox student interested in starting a weekday minyan, “any minyan held in this building has to be egalitarian.” Of course that was perhaps not entirely true, because I’m sure that if a non-Orthodox female student wanted to form a women’s “minyan”, it would have been fully supported.
One would think that a campus Jewish organization headed by an Orthodox rabbi would be more sensitive to the needs of frum students, but we see from this thread that apparently the buck still stops at the rabbi’s observance level. Rather than supporting and facilitating the OP’s desire to maintain her standards from home, the rabbi (perhaps unconsciously, though posters here have explicitly) pressured her to sacrifice her standards on the altar of kumbaya.
This rabbi is likely being paid to assist Jewish students with having a meaningful Jewish experience on campus. Upon hearing that this student feels uncomfortable eating out because of kashrus standards, instead of pressuring, perhaps he could offer to help this student with her observance. “Are you able to find all of the kosher items you need? Our campus group makes a monthly order to have kosher food from NY delivered; perhaps we can add cholov Yisroel milk to the order for you?” Isn’t that what the campus organizations are there for?
In the charedi world generally people will listen to what the Rabbi says without question (assuming its an orthodox rabbi)
In the more modern and especially in the non-orhtodox world, the Rabbi needs to be more persuavie. A Hillel rabbi on a college campus cannot come off the same as a Charedi Rabbi and dictate to the students what to do, they will just leave.
It is not an easy position to be in and the example of egalitarin Minyan vs Halachic minyan is a tough one for these rabbis. You have to persuade people to come to the Halachic minyan vs the egalitarin one rather than order them.
Many here wont like this, but on a college campus there are all sorts of people and the OP might be the first frum person many of these non-religious or non-jews ever meet. Its very important to give a good impression of Yiddishkeit. coming off as standoffish or elitist is not a kiddish Hashem. The people who see this will not get a good view of Yiddishkeit.
Redleg, from the OP: “I’ve heard him make some really questionable comments and psaks about halachos in general and kashrus in specific.”
Zahavasdad, you have no right to assume that the OP comes off as standoffish or elitist.
And keeping firm to one’s values in Yiddishkeit is a kiddush Hashem of the first order.
Chabad is very picky who they will send on Shiluchus. They need certain types to do it.
And if you think they never compromise, you are wrong.
And I wasnt referring to OP , I was referring to the Hillel Rabbi
zahavasdad,
A Hillel rabbi on a college campus cannot come off the same as a Charedi Rabbi and dictate to the students what to do, they will just leave.
I don’t think anyone here is advocating that a campus rabbi do that.
Its very important to give a good impression of Yiddishkeit. coming off as standoffish or elitist is not a kiddish Hashem.
If someone refuses a dinner invite because of allergies or celiac, does that make them appear standoffish? A Jew can decline food invitations, and as long as his/her demeanor towards the one inviting remains friendly, open, and warm, there is no issue of coming across as standoffish or elitist.
Should I eat at a non-Jewish co-worker’s house or go to his church to avoid appearing standoffish?
cmon, its not a chilul hashem to keep the torah.
lmayseh i cud here that the rabbi wud get offended and you gotsta use tact. a lot of it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.