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At the moment I know five 18 yr olds who are engaged and one that got married at 17…what is a generally acceptable age to start looking into shidduchim? And should a 18 yr old consider going out with a 25 yr old boy?
As young as possible. As we are reminded by NASI, people used to get married much younger and it was good for them
Popa, as long as the guy’s even younger, it should’t be a problem. (unless you think divorce is a bad thing)
Dating is not tznius. They should not date at any age. They should have beshows.
Personally, not that I have much experience in this venue, I believe that both parties should be mature enough to think realistically. Look at all of the secular teens out there – do they end up getting married to the boys they dated at age 16 or 17? Let’s face it, the truth is, most teens and young adults are not as mature as we’d like to delude ourselves.
Not only that, I would wait until one has both completed their education and found a means of parnassah to support the family they are looking to start.
when their mother thinks it is time.
Bookworm120
What if you’re going to law school and won’t be able to provide stable income and job security until you’re say 26+?
Please get an education first.
You can graduate law school by 22 no problem.
Graduate high school at 17. Year in seminary, second year in maalot oir something and walk out with undergrad from thomas jefferson at 19. Three years of law school and now you’re 22. Walk into a job at a top law firm and you can support your husband in kollel forever.
Best is husband won’t need to leave the dorm because you’ll never be home (assuming you’re in NYC)(otherwise you’ll be home a bit but it won’t bother you that he stays late in seder)
When she can make a sick potato kugel.
When they are ready to assume the responsibility of a household if mommy and totty were to be unable or unwilling to help support them (and in today’s economy that is often a reality), then they are ready to be married. Otherwise, IMO, they are just playing house, with more expensive toys.
zeena.kasta- a name of old! Welcome back!
To your q, there aren’t answers that apply across the board, you know that. Some ppl are ready at 17, some only at 24. Some find their bashert right away, some dont. And of course there are a limited number who date before they are ready- sometimes that can work out anyhow, and sometimes it doesnt. And the same to the age gap. There is no rule! I know girls married to boys 3 yrs younger, 3 yrs older, 12 yrs older even. If it works for that couple, then dont say no cuz a friend will gasp that he’s older than you. Yeah its true the majority of couples i know are within the range of 2 yrs younger to 8 yrs older, but the other couples i know are happily married, some for years already. It shouldnt matter what yenem does, there’s really only 2 ppl’s opinions who matter in a marriage proposal. As long as he and she agree!
Oomis: Personally, I love playing house with more expensive toys. What’s wrong with getting married and enjoying it?
Girls vary in domestic ability. So long as they have the minimal skills to cook supper and clean the house, and plenty of girls learn on the job, I don’t think that should limit when they get married.
I do agree with getting a degree first, or at least having a realistic plan to be financially independent to fall back on.
Torah613, why would you insist on being “financially independent to fall back on”? I’m close to a godol b’yisroel and he has said many times in shiurim that making a girl bing financially independent to fall back on is possibly the greatest cause for divorce today.
I see. Trapping women financially in marriage is a cause for divorce.
Boy am I glad I don’t live in your world.
Au contraire. He said that forever wives natually relied on their husband for parnassa. Once that natural barrier was broken and they were conditioned and trained that they had the wherewithal and could “go out on their own”, they no longer had that natural need for their husbands thus greatly multiplying the incidents of divorce.
Btw, by the Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel and even by the Chasidim in chutz, that natural setup (husband provider, wife stay-at-home) is still mostly present and their rate of divorce is notably lower.)
Eh? I believe it removes a barrier. But I don’t think remaining in marriage because the alternative is poverty is a good thing.
getzel1- are you sure that’s a bad thing? According to what you’re saying I’d assume that many women were stuck in unhappy marriages simply because they’d starve if they leave. I guess in those days girls with wealthy fathers were more likely to divorce, as they knew their fathers would support them.
How good is it for a marriage when the wife is expected to be the supporter?
Not sure.
@Keenanp – Good question. I’ll admit I hadn’t quite thought about that. I guess make sure the other person is willing to hold down the fort? Like I said, I really don’t have much experience in this venue. 😛
rambam wites a man should get married at 20 so assuming she should be around that age to but he brings heter if hes learning torah in Bais Medrash
Oomis: Personally, I love playing house with more expensive toys. What’s wrong with getting married and enjoying it?
Girls vary in domestic ability. So long as they have the minimal skills to cook supper and clean the house, and plenty of girls learn on the job, I don’t think that should limit when they get married.”
You missed my point. Of COURSE marriage should be fun (among other things). But too many kids are getting married, who don’t get that marriage is also WORK, responsibility, and not a toy you can put away when you are bored. And worse, there are so many young people who still think their parents are responsible for their happiness and financial security. With an attitude of entitlement like that, they are simply not mature enough to be married. They are just playing with more grownup toys.
Being able to cook is NOT one of the essentials to being ready to get married. As you pointed out many couples (I include the men, especially if the women are outside in the workforce to support their husbands while they are learning) learn on the job how to cook and clean.
IMO, one of the reasons the divorce rate during the first year of marriage is so high, is because the young couple, who often barely know each other, much less know each other well, are PLAYING at being married, and don’t really yet understand what marriage means.
plonis – than don’t do it. But in my house it works well since I work 9-3:35 ten months a year as opposed to my husbands 8-5 year round for the same price. Can’t imagine why you should care if we don’t.
7
Syag Lchochma – you’re making assumptions 🙂
I do it and I am happy that I do it too. I am just saying that I don’t think that when I got married, at just 20, I knew what I was really signing up for. It is almost 20 years later, and the responsibility for everything (kids, house, parnassah) is heavier than most people realize when dating. That does not mean that waiting longer to start dating (the original point of the thread) would change things. IMO, waiting until you are older would not change much – life teaches us better than anything else. Just making a point that there is a big gap between what we idealistically want and the reality down the road, and the effects our decisions have on our marriages and our lives. Things are easier in the theoretical than in real life. I don’t think there is a solution to this, or that waiting 2 or 3 more years would make a difference. I think that is how life is…experience is a much better teacher than all the advice in the world.
in the words of rabbi tendler “babies cant have babies”
@oomis, +1
Oomis: Flip side being, hitting them with the full magnitude of the responsibility isn’t going to encourage them to get married.
Oomis: Flip side being, hitting them with the full magnitude of the responsibility isn’t going to encourage them to get married.”
Perhaps, but that is something that I see specific to the present generation. It certainly was not the case when I got married nearly 37 years ago. Our generation (we old folk) have spoiled many of our children by infantilizing them, making all their decisions for them (even before they get to go out on a date, we are selecting and rejecting their potential shidduchim, sometimes based on the most shallow and foolish criteria), and always bailing them out andnot letting them learn to stand on their own two feet. Once in a while, this is a help to one’s children. But time and again to do so – it does them no favor.
My father (half-jokingly, half-serious) told my sister that she wasn’t allowed to date until age 35 and that she needs to dress Amish. I’d probably be just as (over)protective of my own daughter, should HaShem bless me with a daughter.
zeena.kasta- its neither. Its just a fact. No more positive or negative than him having brown hair vs black hair. 7 yrs isnt 20 yrs that would be red flag im my mind. Its a nice normal avg number. Assuming ur asking abt a guy suggested, dont think abt the age gap; if e/t else looks good, give it ur go ahead n let the important factors determine whether there will be another.
I think minimum age should be 20. By then you most probably have two years of schooling done, usually the hardest part is over. It’s hard to juggle a new marriage and stay focused on schooling with studying and preparations at the same time. If the guy is in school too then maybe it’s more doable being that they’re basically on the same schedule. But if he’s learning, when he comes home every night he has to be very patient and understanding and may have to take a backseat if she has a heavy school workload, which is extremely tiring for the girls. I think the chosson rebbi should be mentally preparing the boys for this type situation. I also think the kallah teachers should be preparing the girls how to juggle attention to the new husbands while being focused on schooling.
1st timer, the chosson’s rebbie and kallah teacher are NOT doing that.If girls were realistically educated about what it actually means to be in school and/or work full time, juggle homemaking and rearing children while a husband sits in kollel, they would also realize (like many NON-Jewish women who think they can have it all) that it is not so glatt. Something’s gotta give, and many young women are becoming burnt out at a young age. Most guys come home from learning, want their dinner and to relax (or they go back for another night seder). This is my observation with my friends’ sons who are learning FT. They absolutely are NOT parenting their children. They view watching their baby while the wife goes out i.e., shopping, as a FAVOR to her, not as being a PARENT to their child. That is just wrong.
Marriage is not 50-50. Sometimes it is 70-30 on EITHER side, and even sometimes 100-0. And our kids do not get that yet. Hence, tragically, the rise in early divorces within a year of marriage.
Oomis, That’s exactly what I’m saying! The young couples getting married do not “get” the full picture. They don’t realize what it means to keep house (shopping,cooking,cleaning,laundry) while in school or learning full time, even before bringing a baby (with all pregnancy related issues) into the mix. They should be enjoying and working on building a strong relationship during shana rishona but so many of them are just too tired and burnt out. Between learning, working, studying, going to vorts, weddings, showers, etc. a few times a week, not sleeping enough it’s a mazal that they survive.
I’m not quite sure most people are ready for marriage in their 20s. It takes a lot to hot only be concerned with the financial responsibilities of running a household, but also to be responsible for another person’s feelings and to be sensitive towards another person’s needs, as if they were your own. This is extremely difficult, as marriage entails two neshamos becoming like one. Hurting your spouse, either b’mezid, or b’shogeg, is something that needs to be guarded against, and being responsible for one’s words and actions always needs to be a priority. There is a lot that is involved in marriage, and the fact that our nation’s divorce rate is close to 60% indicates that most people don’t think seriously about what’s entailed.
rebdoniel, your point about the high divorce rate does not support your conclusion that people should get married older. The high divorce rate is in a society where people DO get married much older than their low 20s. And still their divorce rate is so high despite getting married late.
And I always believed that no one is supposed to enter a marriage perfect. Isn’t marriage something that is supposed to be worked on? Am I missing something?
zeena.kasta: Sounds perfect to me.
Zk
If she’s 7 years older it could be a problem. I’m personally not a fan of guys marrying girls older then them and I think the bigger the gap the worse it can be. Him 7 yes older is fine. I know of bigger gaps.
zeena-
Are you really posting while in seminary? Build relationships with your teachers so that you can ask them this question. Just some advice.
Rebdoniel, bear in mind though that a girl is in her best childbearing years in her 20s. Unfortunately it is today’s modern world that does not give our children the right level of maturity at such an age. I know wives my age who will insist that succos and pesach are spent with her family (the whole yom tov) and that is also wrong. The husband also has a family that he wants to see.
Many people in their 20s are still developmentally like teenagers; they’re not economically, emotionally, or intellectually developed or independent or mature yet. They can’t compromise yet. Children having children is bound to fail.
“in the words of rabbi tendler “babies cant have babies” “
Unfortunately they can. which seems to be this world’s biggest problem.
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