Assorted Tzniyus/Pritzus Questions

Hard to avoid scantily clad women in the hot summers. I always have a sefer and or an audio shiur with me when I take subways and buses to keep my mind on the kadosh rather than the chol.

What if it is possible to get the item he’s looking for online . . .

It’s not possible. The internet is assur.

If you totally want to avoid undressed women during the summer months in most western countries, spend the entire summer in the mountains (to be really safe, consider camping in a remote area). Avoid needing to shop, Certainly avoid stores, public streets, mass transit, etc.

If you want to hire an undressed goy to work in your house, that is a problem. Of course you can do your own housework, or hire someone with clothes. Air conditioning helps (no one wants to run around in your house in their bikini if its 65 degrees inside). In all fairness, most blue collar workers dress a lot more modestly than beach “swimmers”.

The beaches during the summer are especially problematic since even by the goyim’s standards they run around excessively undressed – which is something many of the goyim also complain about. Avoid going to the beach – which is not a big problem.

You’re so right.

No reason why the men shouldn’t just go to the beaches already.

#KTCRRRIM

@Charlie: Hard to avoid scantily clad women in the hot summers. I always have a sefer and or an audio shiur with me when I take subways and buses to keep my mind on the kadosh rather than the chol.

Actually, you have to be careful learning in front of something that may be considered an ervah. I know somebody who learnt every day on the subway, and was told by his rav that in the summer, he should make sure to stand and face the wall rather than sit across from an ervah, and not just because of Shmiras Eynayim; you may have a problem with Hilchos Talmud Torah. I advise you to ask a rabbi.

@Gavraatwork: mw13 – AYLOR

@Apushateyid: doesnt sound like OP is actually asking a question.

You apparently missed the point of the thread. #KTCRIM (+1 to mw13!!)

mw13 – Of course, there is chiyuv lehalachah – not just a nice minhag, but a chiyuv – to avoid any unnecessary interaction with immodesty. Going to a mixed beach where there is certain pritzus is assur for any Jewish male. I think the only hetter is going to be ?? ???? ??? ??????; if it is possible to order clothes without going to a shopping mall in the summer, you may well be mechuyav to do that.

I know quite a few people who take off their glasses in the streets in the summer. Not gedoilei yisroel, not chassidishe kedoshim, but regular Litvishe balabatim who don’t see the need to see everything that crosses their path. If your eyesight is good enough that you won’t bash into lampposts, you can do that.

As for cleaning ladies – I don’t know the American industry, but in London it isn’t such a problem. The majority of cleaning ladies are Romanian, Polish or otherwise European, and a lot of them are religious (in some way or another). They often dress more tzniusdik than many frum ladies. And the ones that aren’t are generally sensitive enough to know that they must dress modestly whilst working.

I don’t see how anybody would be able to draw a line, as you asked. At least in principles, any self respecting Yorei Shamayim will tell you that he wouldn’t compromise standards. In practice, however, it is easier said than done.

can/should a frum male be going to mall frequented by non-Jews in the summer months?

Not in the winter either!!

Of course, there is chiyuv lehalachah – not just a nice minhag, but a chiyuv – to avoid any unnecessary interaction with immodesty. Going to a mixed beach where there is certain pritzus is assur for any Jewish male. I think the only hetter is going to be ?? ???? ??? ??????; if it is possible to order clothes without going to a shopping mall in the summer, you may well be mechuyav to do that.

Agreed. The question, how do we define “unnecessary”? For example, what if I can get a nicer or cheaper shirt in the mall?

I don’t understand the doubt. Is there really a question whether it is permitted to violate shmiras einayim in order to secure a “nicer shirt”? That’s a “necessity”?

@Joseph: The question is whether it is considered ???? ????? ??? when the end you are trying to reach cannot be achieved by any other means. Is “?? ????” defined by the means or by the end? By ??? ???? ?? ????, the Rishonim write that wearing tzitzis with kilayim may not be considered ???? ????? ??? to say that you should wear a shirt of different material, because you want to wear this shirt. Once I am wearing this shirt, it is ?? ???? ????? ???.

Of course, this may be chalk and cheese – the two things are not remotely connected. But the definition of “unnecessary” doesn’t have to mean “can you live without it”.

There’s a specific issur of swimming with someone of the opposite gender that has nothing to do with how they’re dressed.

Also, I’ve heard b’sheim Rav Wolbe ZT”L not to close your eyes everywhere you go “If you don’t get the bekius, you won’t get the beiyun”. In other words, don’t try to look at people dressed inappropriately, but you also shouldn’t make a fuss about not looking at anything as it would just mean that your taivos will be that much greater when you accidentally see something.

The clothing clings to the body, when wet, making it tight. And the bathing skirt rides up causing the legs to be uncovered. So men couldn’t even be present, for those reasons alone if not others, when women are swimming even if they weren’t in the water with them.

But what if scientists invented swim clothes that stay modest even in the water?

Quite normal, exemplary in fact, to someone trying to live a normal Jewish Torah-true life. – These are real issues.

“be a good husband, a caring and loving father etc.”

Shmiras einaim (or lack thereof) can positively or negatively influence ones ability to be a good husband/father.