Asking questions, Rationalism

There’s nothing wrong with asking questions. However one must understand that as much as we can give answers we will NEVER and can NEVER understand Hashem because He is so beyond our understanding. Anything we ever do gain to understand of Him is what He has allowed us to know and understand and that will still only be like a droplet in comparison to the ocean.

The simple reason is, Torah will help you acheive the goals you set for yourself (assuming the goal you set is being an Oved Hashem).

Without a map, how can you check your progress? Without a blueprint, how can you build a stable structure?

And like any goal worth achiving, you need to have training from people who have experience (our gedolim, manhigim,).

A very qood question, indeed, Yita!

Mamish mamish. Ok, I’m yotzeh being yeshivish.

Of course, our own powers of perceptions are the basis of any and all belief. But it’s important to realize that logic is not our only basis of perceptions – though it is certainly essential, and the only objective one. But our subjective powers are no less real.

Our a priori knowledge is vast, and includes – but is not limited – to logic. Experience does not teach us all of logic, merely practical logic. But there is a great to deal to logic which is postpriori.

When people get wary of questions, and when the Achronim disagree about the study of philosophy, it is because of this – that philosophy sees logic as axiomatic. It’s not. It’s merely apriori.

But as Kant points out, God – Torah – by definition is beyond human perceptions and limits, including logic. Hence, logic is futile before God. We may only perceive God via our other perceptions – and certainly those do not suffice.

To say that God is logical is to limit Him to human terms. Such a God is not God. How did that master of logic perceive God –

“Two things fill the mind with ever-increasing wonder and awe, the more often and the more intensely the mind of thought is drawn to them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.”

Once we perceive the existence of an

-All-Powerful

– All-Knowing

– Kind & Benevolent God,

via non-logical means!

then we may presume that he made it possible to find him. As logic is the most universal, we may then resort to logic. But even then, if one could perceive Yahdus through irrational means, it would be equally valid. And may do. Of course, one can present this to another person. But if someone says that the beauty of Yiddishkiet, it’s purity and structure and history are enough for him – well, that is equally valid! And if people which to encourage others on that path, it is equally valid.

But for someone of us that won’t suffice. But it’s certainly an equally valid approach.

SJS – logic is very different from the laws of nature.

BP- is something true because it is helpful? What I made a false religion, but one that psychologically infused a person with joy, happiness, made then make billions and lose 50 pounds, gave then wonderful marriages, perfect kids-

Does that make it true?

SJS –

When we say logic, we mean the rules of existence that are not based on experience, that are part of our very being, like something cannot be true and false at the same time.

Science is pure observation. The only way science progress is by observation something different from what it saw until now. A contradiction to a law of science is not illogical; we merely must understand the phenomena that has presented it itself before us.

But it has nothing to do with logic in a philosophical sense. Logic has no beef with miracles. If say, an alien turned lot’s wife into salt via advanced technology – with a stun gun, right in front of Lot – would that be illogical? Or merely rules of nature that we don’t understand?

Yes, but in this world we have the principle of consistency based on experience.

Man walks into street. Man gets hit by car.

Man walks into street. Man gets hit by car.

Man learns the principle of large object, squishing small object. This applies for everything in our world.

But what experience do we have with the realm of divine? ZERO!

Logically speaking, you have just elaborate the agnostic approach. We cannot know if there is or is not a God. Just like we don’t know if we are the cosmic dream of an ant. Can you tell me if we are or are not?

And just because my tools of existence are all I have, does that mean that I can apply to something which is by definition beyond them? If God is unknowable via logic, just because logic works elsewhere, what good is logic for God?

Unless we assume there is a God, who wants us to know Him, – ah ha, he must make himself Knowable to me via those highly limited tools, because He wants me to know Him, and will present Himself to me in a way I can perceive.

But if we know nothing about Him – why should he care? Maybe I can’t know anything about him? Again, just because I cross the street- what does that have to with him?

We need to assume God, then get logical.

Also, you may indeed by hallucinating. But within your hallucination you are going to keep doing what works to get the results you want. We may indeed be hallucinating (I mean, ever since I dropped LSD I haven’t been sure). We don’t know. But it doesn’t make the slightest difference!

But Torah deals with absolute reality. How are we to approach the absolute?

How is it logical to assume the person next to you will turn into a pillar of salt?

Nothing to do with his famed letter. Descartes proved there is an experience of perception which implies an experiencer, hence some sort of independent existence. But I can be perceiving within the dream of an ant/a hallucination/ a video game etc. . There must be a perceiver. But does the perceiver perceive absolute reality? Nope.

And by the way, latin is soooo not yeshivish.

im not sure how this fits in here

but

Rabbi Moshe Wolfson, shlita, explains that the first time the Torah uses a word tells us its most fundamental meaning

the first time “kofer” was used was the pitch used to cover Moshes little basket.

he explains when Hashem blew of himself into Adam a deep unchanging and unquestioned Emunah and knowledge of Hashem was implanted.

this is merely “covered up” by the alien ideas around us and by our getting used to all the wonders that occur every moment (as explained in Chovos Ha Levovos)

that is why a kofer is called a kofer. he denies because his innate Emunah is “covered up”, not because he does not believe deep down.

pretty much, something like that.

SJSinNYc, do not confuse logical with likely.

Also, it is very interesting that many laws of quantum mechanics and theory of relativity are totally ar odds with our perception of reality. What I want to say is that if something does not appear to make sence to us, based on our perception of physical realities, it does not mean that it can not be.

A good God is pretty much a universal, non-logical belief.

That’s only because the “Bad God” people either slaughtered each other or got slaughtered by others (Specificly the Kali cult by the British in the 19th century). It’s much easier to live with someone who is willing to leave you alone.

Is it likely she will? –No.

But it is logical that God Almighty can do that.

Maybe I’ve been too entrenched in math logic, but I don’t understand how its logical. Plausible, if Hashem changes the laws of nature. Logical? I don’t think so.

I do think the base thought process is agnostic too. But even agnostics have to make a choice – live like a believer or live like a non-believer.

yes, and I just want to bring irrelevant definitions

okay popa

Rationalism–the science of distributing and withholding from distribution, food and water when one is stranded at sea on a raft.

source unknown

Salt:

Salt is a mineral that is composed primarily of sodium chloride. It is essential for animal life in small quantities, but is harmful to animals and plants in excess. Salt flavor is one of the basic tastes, making salt one of the oldest, most ubiquitous food seasonings. Salting is an important method of food preservation.

Source – Wikipedia