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It is not bad if people learn more Torah. Besides, paper is heavy, fragile and almost as new a technology as an iPad.
If you don’t have a good answer, why do you think you’re right?
Perhaps you’re right, although you don’t have a good answer, but why would you think so?
Rebyidd: let me know when I can be all alone and take my paper and watch any movie I want on it.
Daas Yochid: Mashul: I know there is 1 Hashem and He runs the world. I may not have all the answers regarding His ways,(for example tzadik vira lo) but that doesn’t me im wrong and He doesn’t run the world. it means I don’t have an answer.
Oh, rich people. I didn’t realize.
I didnt say you’re wrong; I’m asking you why you think you’re right.
That’s also not a good mashal, because the reasons to believe that Hashem runs the world are more compelling than the kashyas, but you haven’t given a compelling reason that you’re right here.
that doesn’t me im wrong
It doesn’t mean that you’re right either… and as the party asserting a position, the burden of proof is on you.
The Wolf
I picture Daas Yochid & Reb Yidd as twins. (perhaps Siamese?) you guys are always repeating what each other said. How endearing.
Wolf, you must be a vegitarianist. 🙂
Hashemisreading, Wolf is correct, and furthermore, even if you are correct, if you can’t answer the questions on your position, you probably shouldn’t be the one trying to convince others.
Okay so how about you continue learning from your garbage or potential garbage and ill continue learning from my seforim hakedoshim.
*admitting defeat to trying to explain to shallow people their wrongdoings*
*admitting defeat to trying to explain to shallow people their wrongdoings*
Do you think Hashem read that insult?
Yup, the same way He read all the others.
Yup, the same way He read all the others.
I’m sorry that you took my disagreeing with you as an insult.
The Wolf
Modern movable type printing was developed in Christian Europe in the mid-15th century. (There had been some earlier examples of such in Asia.) It was immediately applied to religious and secular documents in the Christian world and Jewish worlds. But in the Muslim world, religious authorities prevented them from being used until the 18th century even though Arabic texts were being printed in Christian Europe and smuggled into the Ottoman Empire and even thought the Ottoman Empire permitted Christians and Jews to use printing presses.
What became of Islam is well known to us all and the reactionary bias against printing is a major contributing factor. Let us not repeat the same error regarding the internet that Islam made with printing.
“You guys don’t understand how gemara on a device fully loaded with garbage is a bizayon?”
My “device” is loaded with shiurim from modern orthodox rabbis. That is why the charedi world is basically doomed — the modern orthodox world has embraced modern technology to spread Torah while the charedi world is still largely in the 19th century on these matters.
the charedi world is basically doomed
That’s what they said about all Orthodoxy a number of decades ago…
the charedi world is basically doomed
I will disagree there and its very likely the CHaredi world will be the domninat form of Judiasm in about 50-75 years and it has nothing to do with devices. It is other forms of Judaism that is likley doomed
Most charedi families have 10-17 children while the more modern have alot less kids and frankly the Charedi are more committed than the more modern who according to Pew have a higher leaving rate than the Charedim
and frankly the Charedi are more committed than the more modern who according to Pew have a higher leaving rate than the Charedim
Had I said that, I wonder what the reaction would have been…
I give you a lot of credit for that. Kudos, ZD.
DY
If you said it , I would have agreed as do most demographers
(Example: I’m learning gemara and they quote a passuk, but I’d like to see it in context and with Rashi. I can do that very easily on my iPad. I can’t do that with paper because I don’t carry an entire library around with me. Is it bad that I can do that? Does my ability to delve deeper into sources or rapidly find related material make my learning any less valuable? If so, please explain why.)
I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me why this is a bad thing…
The Wolf
(Example: I’m learning gemara and they quote a passuk, but I’d like to see it in context and with Rashi. I can do that very easily on my iPad.
I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me why this is a bad thing…
This doesn’t answer your question, but you could do that with a chumash.
Also, those arguing against it haven’t said there’s no benefit, just that they feel the negative outweighs it (not that I agree).
This doesn’t answer your question, but you could do that with a chumash.
Yes, but I’m not going to carry a gemara AND chumash (and a nach, and a Rambam, and a Shulchan Aruch…) with me wherever I go.
Also, those arguing against it haven’t said there’s no benefit, just that they feel the negative outweighs it (not that I agree).
But they’re saying (using my paraphrase) that it’s a bad thing. I want to know why.
The Wolf
But they’re saying (using my paraphrase) that it’s a bad thing. I want to know why.
They’re saying it’s a bad thing because they feel the risk of engaging in negative behavior with the hardware (which some people will only get once there is a positive use such as Torah) outweighs the benefit of having it for positive purposes.
Someone could have a television and only use it for National Geographic programming on nature. But many of those getting it with that intent only will inevitably use it for less benign purposes once they have it.
They’re saying it’s a bad thing because they feel the risk of engaging in negative behavior with the hardware (which some people will only get once there is a positive use such as Torah) outweighs the benefit of having it for positive purposes.
And the risk of getting hit by a car when crossing the street outweighs the benefit of it when I’m doing it for recreational purposes… and yet I don’t think the OP would ever say “don’t cross the street unless you’re going to shul or work.”
The Wolf
So anyone interested in nature should get a television to watch National Geographic rather than refrain from doing so on account that it might lead to watching less benign programming?
The tumah that technology is putting on k lal Yisroel of our generation is so bad Rachmana ltzlan that sometimes I wonder how much lower can we sink? What will be with the next generation? It scares me
How about answering the question I asked you above, four months ago?
To wit:
(Example: I’m learning gemara and they quote a passuk, but I’d like to see it in context and with Rashi. I can do that very easily on my iPad. I can’t do that with paper because I don’t carry an entire library around with me. Is it bad that I can do that? Does my ability to delve deeper into sources or rapidly find related material make my learning any less valuable? If so, please explain why.)
The Wolf
Wolf
Learning Hashem holy Torah is never the same when read on a computer screen.
Why?
I regards to your question use your ipad with shas on it as a source to look up meforshim but for your main learning it should be from a Sefer at a table (not relaxing on your couch )
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of riding on the subway to and from work, when I don’t want to carry an entire library with me.
The Wolf
Well, does your device have kedushas sefer?
Comlink: Why does that matter? The Divrei Torah are what give Kedushah to the Sefer, not vice versa. Something does not need to have Kedushah to have Divrei Torah. Divrei Torah are what cause Kedushah. And in this case, according to most Poskim, the manner in which the Divrei Torah are manifested does not cause Kedushah to the device.
Well, does your device have kedushas sefer?
I don’t know. But who says that the physical kedusha of the sefer has anything to do with the quality of the learning?
The Wolf
No one we know of so far, but there does seem
to be some peculiarity here. I’m not saying that
he’s right, only that he’s not being totally absurd.
MA: You clearly didn’t read my post.
Do you also promise to put your iPad in Shaimos when it becomes unusable? If its full of Torah then it needs to be buried with Shaimos
According to Rav Ovadiah Yosef items stored on a computer are not STAM.
Any Alef you see on a computer is not really an Alef, but a computer representation of an Alef, so there is no need for shamos for computer equipment that might have shaimos stored on it
1101 0111 1001 0000
That is the binary representation of ‘?’ (just btw).
The computer stores the letter Aleph that way in memory.
Do you also promise to put your iPad in Shaimos when it becomes unusable? If its full of Torah then it needs to be buried with Shaimos
No, I won’t, and no it doesn’t need to be.
But so what?
When your CD with a song with pesukim on it becomes unusable, do you put it in Shaimos? How about your MP3 player with shiurim on it? Or how about your tape cassettes? Or the DVD with a video of a shiur?
(Hint: the halacha is pretty clear. The answer for all of the above is “no.”)
Yet, in none of those cases have I ever heard anyone give an “oy vey” about that. In none of those cases did I ever hear anyone say “oh, how horrible, they’re learning Torah without paper and ink.”
So, again, I pose the question to you. Why do you feel that dead trees and ink are a bona fide requirement for Torah learning to have any holiness or value?
The Wolf
AY: I wonder who you asked. I got that same answer from a major Posek. I also got the exact opposite answer from R’ Elyashiv (well, not me; a Posek who I was standing next to when he asked R’ Elyashiv). R’ Elyashiv said that a computer screen constitutes writing and is Assur on Chol HaMoed (and that learning Torah on a screen is really bad because it’s an Issur D’Oraisa of Lo Sa’asun Kein when you close/change the screen).
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