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oiy vei Hashem.
Where is the kedusha of Hashems holy torah bringing us to mixing it with technology? whats next? learn daf yomi while driving on the highway & texting someone at the same time?
davening from a phone is already a bizayon Hashem, but if your traveling or theres no siddur around it can be used. but its still a bizayon.
Learning gemara with technology & carrying shas in your ipad is pushing the torah into bizayon Hatorah way too far…. how many years will it be until i can carry every sefer & book in my local judaica store in a thin ipad? no more ruchnius seforim needed in my home to learn with my children i just open my ipad….
What is your opinion? let me know what you think. i’m open to hear your HONEST opinion.
You put your messages you will not find in any sefer or newspaper that are not from you on the Internet. Plus, bound books are a form of technology, as are scrolls.
There is an evil device that has made more Apikoras , Prizus , Anti-semitism and more
Its called the PRINTING PRESS. Just think about how much Kefira and Prizus have been made due to this evil device and now its also easier for non jews to get a gemora and learn it (Oy R’L) because they are readily availble which was not the case before this evil device was invented. We need to stop printing books with this evil device and go back to the days of manuscripts to prevent this shanda
Mashiach Agent: Do you listen to shiurim in your car, as many people do? Isn’t that using technology too? If something helps someone learn more and better, why does that disturb you?
What is the kedusha of your holy prophecies doing online?
Find a street corner and spout your nonsense there
1. The printing press had a bigger impact(producing easier to use gemaras and a radically lower price)
2. Given that most frum Jews like to learn on Shabbos, the new technologies will have a limited impact (unlike the printing press which was very compatible with Shabbos learning)
Today, all the “traditional” paper-based seforim are also produced by means of technology. Long gone are the days of “movable type,” “printing plates” and even the printing presses that were used in previous decades. Nowadays, every printed book is a file that the computer (the actual printing press) spits out printed on paper. It’s all technology, and has been so for quite a few years.
The Artscroll Shas was made available for the iPAD about 3.5 years ago. The only thing new is the Hebrew Shas that just started with Maseches Gittin.
The telephone was a new invention in the time of the Choeftz Chaim and most did not have one in their house. I am sure the Chofetz Chaim would have had alot more to say against it had it become common place in his time and with all the Loshon haroh spoken with it
If the gedolim allow a minyan via Skype, then its permitted. There is no question
Mashiach Agent:
You give wonderful examples. But what are these examples of?
MA. What you say is completely illogical as has been pointed out.
Nevertheless I am inclined to agree with you.
In general there is a strong thread of true Avodas Hashem in your posts which I find encouraging.
what will the word davening mean then? a joke C”V i can drive to work wearing my tefillin & davening by heart & then text someone else at the same time C”V
Your example is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
For a minyan, halacha specifies that the members have to be physically present. There is no inherent requirement for paper when it comes to Talmud Torah.
I’m still confused why you feel learning from an electronic source is a bizayon, but learning from a paper one isn’t. Do you feel that listening to a tape recorded shiur is a bizayon? If not, why is that any different?
Personally, I *like* having an app on my Ipad through which I have all of Shas, Tanach, the Shulchan Aruch, works of mussar and halacha and lots of other stuff. It’s a virtual portable library. I’m not limited to learning the one book I have.
The Wolf
All methods of printing are technology.
These threads make me sick. I honestly don’t know why I keep reading this. You guys don’t understand how gemara on a device fully loaded with garbage is a bizayon?!
Whats wrong with you people?!
How shallow can someone be??
Enough with the cynicism and take things seriously!
Not all technological devices are loaded with garbage.
I have this image of myself going to the Doctor in 30 years (sooner?) and sitting in the waiting room with my sefer. All around me people are wondering what it is that I’m looking at. All their brains are fried and their bodies are beginning to form the image of an iPhone.
I’m scared.
RebYidd: they all gave the potential of being loaded with garbage.
Not everyone has the space or the money for alot of Seforim and for smaller print runs, E-books might be the solution for wider distribution.
Personally I dont like the small print especially of Rashi’s and Tosfot and I like being able to blow up the text
RebYidd: they all gave the potential of being loaded with garbage.
… and any book has the potential to have inappropriate things written in it, and any tape recorder could be used for inappropriate music. Your point?
The Wolf
Theres no internet on your tape deck in your car.
I am sure many thought the same thing about the Printing Press
They put Hashem’s name in the press and then erased the moveable type and then Seforim became able to be in most peoples home unlike before where only manuscripts existed and they were rare and hard to get
I am sure many said there is not ruchnius in a printed book as opposed to a manuscript where someone put alot of time and effort into writing it
wolf:listening to a shiur on tape while driving is a opportunity to learn torah & do something ruchnius. versus just driving. people don’t listen to these shiurim on tape so they could avoid sitting live with a speaker.
No, you missed the point. My point was, why is listening to a shiur on tape (as opposed to in person) not a bizayon, but my learning something on my iPad is one?
versus our topic of all seforim on a ipad. puts the kedusha of learning Hashems torah much lower & makes it not as ruchnius as learning from a sefer in a bais medrash or even at home.
Why is there less ruchnius from learning something from an electronic source? What makes paper inherently more ruchnius? And, often, when I’m learning from my iPad, it’s because I’m neither in a beis midrash or at home — I’m travelling. So, why is it more spiritual to limit myself to one or two sefarim, as opposed to having access to lots and lots of sefarim?
(Example: I’m learning gemara and they quote a passuk, but I’d like to see it in context and with Rashi. I can do that very easily on my iPad. I can’t do that with paper because I don’t carry an entire library around with me. Is it bad that I can do that? Does my ability to delve deeper into sources or rapidly find related material make my learning any less valuable? If so, please explain why.)
The Wolf
RebYidd: they all gave the potential of being loaded with garbage.
As zahavasdad pointed out, printed materials can also contain garbage. I understand the dangers of portable internet connectivity, but that doesn’t seem to be your issue.
Given a choice, I prefer learning from a sefer, but that’s my personal preference.
I’ve seen serious talmidei chachomim using a laptop with Otzar Hachochma in the bais medrash.
If someone can have thousands of seforim available in portable format or an Artscroll Shas for someone who benefits from that, it could enhance his learning, and in my opinion is not much different than listening to a shiur in the car. Even granting that a paper sefer is better, the portable electronic device makes the seforim available when the paper version is not.
Theres no internet on your tape deck in your car.
If there was, then I shouldn’t listen to a shiur while driving?
I have a pair of knitting needles in my house. How would I load them with garbage? I also have scissors, scotch tape, a suitcase with wheels and other similar technological devices. Please explain how they have the potential to be loaded with garbage.
its great for traveling but soon these ipads will not only be used for traveling it will be people one gadget with all seforim on it & thats it
And that’s bad, why????
people may also C”V bring it into a restroom to read YWN & forget that Hashems name is written in it & thousands of seforim are on that same ipad. thats a major bizayon hatorah & may be ossur to bring into restroom.
No it’s not… not anymore than it is to bring a tape with an audio shiur into the bathroom. As long as it’s not on the screen, it’s fine.
Based on your logic, I could never swipe from one passuk to the next because I’d be erasing the Shem. Nonetheless, it’s clear that unless it’s literal writing, those halachos don’t apply.
Of course, one should not actively be learning on it while using the bathroom, but that just as easily applies to a physical book as well.
The Wolf
Please explain why technology is inherently unholy, those of you who think so. Also, be prepared to answer whether you think the same of devices that do not have the ability to connect to the Internet, such as the “Boox Buki” (or whatever it’s called).
(By the way, your home telephone (assuming you still have one,
and that your service is not “kosher”) can be used for things
of the same nature as your issue with the Internet.)
As has been pointed out, electronic devices will never replace sefarim entirely, because they cannot be used on Shabbos.
Also, yeshivos will probably not allow them, so there’s that as well.
Yes, consult your LOR before you lament the possibility of a
device with d’varim shebik’dusha on it being brought somewhere that it is forbidden to bring sefarim, Mr. Agent.
(Actually, maybe it’s better to occupy our time than his.)
I know how to literally load the suitcase with garbage, but not the other things.
According to most Poskim you dont need to worry about erasing Hashem name from an electronic device. It is not considered his actual name but rather a digital reporesentation that looks like it.
Otherwise people would have a greater problem with hashem’s name in digital.
He didnt tell me, but I would like to think Hashem likes anyway (Ok almost anyway) his torah is learned and is not to particular as long as it was done L-shem shamayim
As has been discussed, the mechiyas hasheim issue depends on the type of technology, and although you’re correct that the technogy used on most devices would allow it according to most poskim, your reasoning is incorrect as far as I know.
Personally I have found that the Bar Illan database has greatly benefited my learning. Aside from Gemara, Rashi, and Tosphos, I learn almost exclusively from my laptop. I’m able to find sources very quickly, and the letters are clear, unlike some older printings of seforim.
I think one has to distinguish between technology in general, and technology which most Chareidi gedolim have said is inherently bad. Most Gedolim say that a smartphone/ipad should absolutely not be used, unless it is absolutely necessary for business, and even then only with a filter.
Now, we all know this isn’t the metzius on the ground.
Comes along a “chareidi” company, Artscroll, and in a way gives all those people who are transgressing a way to legitimize what the gedolim say they shouldn’t have.
“See? I’m doing something GOOD with my iphone! It’s helping me learn!”
I’m not judging Artscroll. Hopefully they asked gedolim whether they should make a gemara app. If not, chances are their lot will be the same as all those who transgress the psak of the gedolim, whatever that will end up being after 120.
The device itself is capable of accessing the internet.
Hashem is reading this now. So curious what He thinks. he’s on my side, I know.
I know.
Then you wouldn’t be curious.
I know He’s on my side, I’m curious what else He’s thinking. Not sure what the contradiction is.
There are plenty of Seforim that would have been forgotton and not learned if it wasnt for electronic Media. While the torah will never be forgotton, individual seforim could very well be.
Hashem I am sure is getting alot of Nachas from the torah from less available seforim
I never said there was nothing good about technology. I hate when we stray from the point.
To summarize: I believe it is a bizayon to Hashem to learn (or daven) from a device that is loaded with garbage.
To summarize: I believe it is a bizayon to Hashem to learn (or daven) from a device that is loaded with garbage.
I think it is wrong of you to assume that when you see an Ipad, that it is loaded with garbage.
The Wolf
So if its not loaded with garbage then its not a bizayon!!!
What part is so hard to comprehend?
If that’s too deep you can take my previous answer- it has the potential of being loaded with garbage. but then you’ll say a book also has that potential, which unfortunately I don’t have an answer for.
So if its not loaded with garbage then its not a bizayon!!!
But that’s not what the OP was all about. The OP made no such qualification… he just made the blanket statement that (and I’m paraphrasing here) “if it’s not paper, it’s bad.”
The Wolf
but then you’ll say a book also has that potential, which unfortunately I don’t have an answer for.
If you don’t have an answer, then perhaps you should consider that you are wrong.
Almost anything has the potential for being overloaded with garbage
A bookstore could be all Seforim or it could be a Prizus bookstore or some combination
I’m not judging Artscroll. Hopefully they asked gedolim whether they should make a gemara app. If not, chances are their lot will be the same as all those who transgress the psak of the gedolim, whatever that will end up being after 120.
The entire gemorah is already scanned and OCR’ed (Meaning its in text mode already) and there are only about 6000 (I think) different words in the Gemorah. it would not be too difficult to make an automatic translation of the Gemorah into english that is searchable. Better for ArtScroll to do it properly than someone else with different motives
wolf: “So if its not loaded with garbage then its not a bizayon!!!”
“But that’s not what the OP was all about. The OP made no such qualification… he just made the blanket statement that (and I’m paraphrasing here) “if it’s not paper, it’s bad.”
it may not be a bizayon but I didn’t stay its not bad anymore!
Daasyochid: just because I don’t have a good answer, that doesn’t me im wrong.
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