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Instead of “Here in Arkansas and across America, Republicans are working to end the policy of trapping kids in failing schools and sentencing them to a lifetime of poverty”, she is working to ensnare kids in dangerous jobs and sentencing them to a lifetime of being uneducated.
so leave Arkansas and move to Chicago or New York, and the people in Arkansas do what they think is best !
Many of my friends in Israel dropped out of school at age 13, started working construction, and by the time they are 25, they each have a small construction company, wife, several kids, own a home, and learn Torah every evening (mostly Likutei Moharan, but still). Some have even later completed school and gotten engineers degrees, or at the very least general contractor licenses.
Jackk
Here’s some numbers. Average national competency for math 38%. In New York where I live 57% of high school students are deemed “college ready“
When I graduated high school. I was college ready with the two hours a day of secular studies I got. Yet somehow a huge percentage of high schoolers can’t seem to get there. We can blame the system, Parents, culture, etc..
But isn’t it more logical to put people to work rather than waste their lives in endless failures in the educational system?
Isn’t it better for their self esteem to be producing rather than constantly feeling as a failure?
Wouldn’t it be better for the serious students if the frustrated and trouble making students were out of the system?Good for them. People who are not built for college-level jons, should learn job skills.
Good for the governor for getting government out the way. When my then-teenaged daughter wanted to get a summer job I had to take time off work to go to the local public school (which she did not attend) to have them issue working papers. What benefit did this serve? If a 14 year old is allowed to work in an office, have the business verify her age the same way they verified her eligibility to work in the US.
And by the way, appropriate child labor is great for the child. They learn responsibility and develop confidence, and once they see how little they bring home from their minimum wage job they discover that education, learning a skilled trade, or becoming an entrepreneur will take them where they want to go in life.
Better to work than to get brainwashed by the LGBT propaganda machine that you call an education
jackk: Are you talking about forcing kids to quit elementary or middle schools (ages 13 and below) to start work, since that is what “child labor” refers to, or are you talking about encouraging teenagers to get jobs and training where they develop skills leading to meaningful employment. Giving kids a “liberal” education that will only qualify them them to be unemployed hardly benefits them, and in fact dooms them to a lifetime of poverty. Industrial skills are good even for Americans. I suspect you perceive the working class as “deplorables”, and do not understand there is as much honor, and income, as a machinist or an operator as there is as a poet or an artist or even as a paper-pusher. Your attitude may be part of why people are fleeing states such as New York and California for “red” states where honest work is encouraged and rewarded.
I have very strong feelings about the weakening of child labor laws by states. My mother started to work in the sweatshops at the age of 7 as a immigrant child. By the time the FLSA was enacted she was an adult.
I have very strong feelings about the weakening of child labor laws by states. My mother started to work in the sweatshops at the age of 7 as a immigrant child. By the time the FLSA was enacted she was an adult. The was long before ‘woke’ became a dog whistle for the right.
Amil, to be put in historical context: your grandparents presumably immigrated to USA, understanding it was a better alternative. Same as many children in poor countries now benefit from factories employing them, preferring those jobs to starvation in villages. This is not to excuse horrible cases, but to see things in perspective.
Jack K > It boggles my mind that Republicans want to make voting as restricted and regulated as they can, but child safety gets thrown in the garbage because of inconvenience.
yes, they are mature enough to clean tables, but not mature enough to make political decisions.
There are pros and cons to universal franchise: pro – everyone’s interests are counted; cons – decisions are mediocre. Given current ability to manipulate opinions, cons grow and grow. So, maybe we need a two-tier system: people who pass IQ, SAT and political knowledge test will be allowed to vote. The rest could find someone in the previous group and delegate him with the vote.AAQ, I cannot minimize the evils of child labor like you do. My life experience, not just my family’s, leads me to far different conclusions.
Move to West Virginia. At least in the Mountain State, children can no longer be forced to marry under the age of 16. The Republican Senate had blocked the bill on Wednesday night but it was passed at the 11th hour yesterday before adjournment. Its ok for younger kids to work in some jobs but the Arkansas bill allows for children under 16 to work in shlachthoises and dangerous factories.
Amil,
just consider what are/were alternatives for these children. If they were deprived of something to become laborers is one thing, but if they live in some remote Indian/Chinese/Burmese villages and their alternative is starvation, then maybe child labor is a step to a better future?AAQ as I stated earlier, I can’t rationalize child labor like you do. My own life experience leads me to far different conclusions.
My son can’t be a jc (junior counselor) in camp this year because he will be 1 month short or 14 when the second half of camp starts
He wants to work so he can make money
We want him to work because it will teach him responsibility
The camp wants him to work because he used to be a camper and they know himThis is what is probably being permitted in Arkansas, not forced child labor like the democrats want you to believe
Amil, I understand your emotional response. Still, if someone wants to open a factory with child labor in a remote Bangladeshi village and save those kids from starvation, would you object on principle? I hope not and your humanity is above simple labels.
Coffee, would it be the same for a day camp in town? My kids worked there before 14, and (I think) it was legal in my state.
“For example, could anything be worse than having children work in sweatshops? Alas, yes. In 1993, child workers in Bangladesh were found to be producing clothing for Wal-Mart, and Senator Tom Harkin proposed legislation banning imports from countries employing underage workers. The direct result was that Bangladeshi textile factories stopped employing children. But did the children go back to school? Did they return to happy homes? Not according to Oxfam, which found that the displaced child workers ended up in even worse jobs, or on the streets — and that a significant number were forced into prostitution.”
-Paul Krugman, New York Times April 22, 2001a double miracle, agree with a marxist and a krugman. Possibly the same person.
jackk > That is seriously misguided and evil.
pleazse, re-read your post. It consists of statements without any arguments. You could do better (by adding arguments or deleting unsupported statements).
Jackk
“That is seriously misguided and evil. The defense of using child labor is what capitalist’s dream about.
It is anti-torah , totally corrupt and completely unethical.“Since 13 is the basic age of majority, wouldn’t the Torah have no problem with putting a 13 yr old to work?
And since giving a job to someone is considered the highest form of tzedakah wouldn’t such a person be a baal tzedakah and not an evil capitalist?“Coffee, would it be the same for a day camp in town? My kids worked there before 14, and (I think) it was legal in my state.“
It is in regards to a day camp in town
Welcome to NY
Mentch 1: Irrespective of being bnai/bnos mitzvah, the issue of child-labor turns on the nature of the work and risks involved. A 13 YO is certainly capable of doing certain work and learning valuable job skills and responsibility but clearly daas torah couldn’t have contemplated having a child of that age working in a coal mine or in a meat processing plant.
Children would be good auto mechanics. They could fit under the car more easily than adults, for doing oil changes, etc. And you wouldn’t have to pay them as much, which would reduce car-related expenses.
Gadol
Just to play devils advocate
why is it better/more fair to have an adult in those places?
Many boys that age are larger/stronger than full grown women who we would allow in those jobscoffee > It is in regards to a day camp in town
Blushing. It did not even occur to me that those jobs my kids were doing might not have been legal. Thus, I did not even check! I’ll go consult a lawyer and report myself to authorities.
“a federal office of gun violence prevention”
Thats actually comical.
We must prevent school shootings! Yeah, we must set up yet another government office to solve the crisis!Republicans refuse to address school shootings in any practical way. They have a long history of resisting comprehensive background checks or limiting the sale of weapons that are typically used to slaughter our school children.
AAQ, I want to back up a bit. The FSLA was enacted into law in 1938. Both of my parents worked as children prior to this law. By the time it was enacted they were both adults.
Amil, apparently great depression was a catalyst of children – who were first to become unemployed – to go to school as they had nothing else to do, leading to official recognition of “teenagers” as having their own status and privilege of not working.
if someone is serious about gun violence prevention, they should propose a legislation that has something for all sides. Better background checks balanced by some perks to responsible guy owners, so that the other side does not feel that they are losing ground even on issues that they could accept on the merits. Unfortunately, like most debates, this one becomes a game of partisan advantage, so there is blood on all their hands.
If you Google the law it doesn’t seem to have changed too much of arkansas (?) law.
According to NPR: Under the Youth Hiring Act of 2023, children under 16 don’t have to get the Division of Labor’s permission to be employed. The state also no longer has to verify the age of those under 16 before they take a job. The law doesn’t change the hours or kinds of jobs kids can work.
“The Governor believes protecting kids is most important, but this permit was an arbitrary burden on parents to get permission from the government for their child to get a job,” Sanders’ communications director Alexa Henning said in a statement to NPR. “All child labor laws that actually protect children still apply and we expect businesses to comply just as they are required to do now.”
Workers under 16 in Arkansas have had to get these permits for decades.
Supporters of the new law say it gets rid of a tedious requirement, streamlines the hiring process, and allows parents — rather than the government — to make decisions about their children.
But opponents say the work certificates protected vulnerable youth from exploitation.
“It was wild to listen to adults argue in favor of eliminating a one-page form that helps the Department of Labor ensure young workers aren’t being exploited,” the group Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families wrote about the law in a legislative session recap.So basically a useless law to have a useless form was knocked out. Mazel Tov. And then someone came and said “she is working to ensnare kids in dangerous jobs and sentencing them to a lifetime of being uneducated.” Genius.
The most coherent Tainah I found was this on Axios: “Joshua Price, deputy director of immigrant advocacy group Arkansas United, told legislators requiring the forms makes it easier for the government to hold violators accountable. The process is an added layer of protection that makes it harder for an employer under investigation for hiring someone underage to claim ignorance.”
So basically he’s saying that it will make a prosecutors job slightly easier if you have this form. I can’t imagine Sanders has in mind that she doesn’t care about kids so she might as well make it a tiny bit harder to prosecute companies that break the child labor laws.
I hope jakk didn’t do even a basic Google search before starting this thread, because if he did then this thread is just a huge troll.
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