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Health, on the contrary, Turkey’s Jews live in constant fear and must toe the government line. In any case, having Turkey take over Israel c”v is an issur d’Oraita. Ramban is explicit that we must go to war rather than do this and Rambam stronly implies it. What you are proposing is simply insanity.
Try this: make a list of countries that were established after WWII (there were many). Then make another list of things that countries are supposed to do — not like bringing the Mashiach, just country kinds of things like feeding their citizens. Then try to assess the success of these countries in doing those things. You’ll find one country that’s so far ahead of the others that even a Nobel Prize winning economist like Simon Kuznetz couldn’t explain it all. He suggested that the answer lies in an intangible that lies outside the intellectual debate. Which country do you think he was talking about? And which “intangible”?
Wow, to hear such words from one who purports to be Jewish and Shomer Mitzvos!!!
Your blaming of Israel for all the problems of the Middle East makes you a Malshin. Your proposal to take millions of Jews who enjoy some sovereignty and submit them to the sovereignty of any non Jewish state makes you a Moser.
Perhaps we are Mehuyav to tear kriah upon such words, just like they tore kriah on the words of Ravshaka.
Fortunately such Chutzpa against the Jewish People does not flow in my shul or in any shul in my city.
Such Chutzpa against the Jewish People is in effect chutzpa against He who chose the Jewish people.
Blaming Israel for all the problems of the Middle East is the Blood Libel of the 21th Century.
Health, you have a shining future in stand-up. However, don’t give up your day job just yet.
Health: Avi K makes a good point actually. How is what you endorse not an Issur D’Oraisa of Lo S’chonem?
Rav Gifter ztzl: “Of course I’m a Zionist! How can a Jew not be a Zionist? But those people calling themselves Zionists… someone should lock them up for a few years and maybe knock some sense into their heads!”
My definition of Zionism is that it is an important thing for the Jewish people to have a Jewish State. On that I disagree on every single aspect.
From a secular standpoint, a Jewish State is important as it unites Jews behind a single cause. As a Torah Jew, this is ridiculous as we already have the Torah to unite us.
From a religious standpoint, the concept of a Jewish State in Eretz Yisroel is not considered a good thing according to the Gemara. The whole “Ikviseh d’Meshichteh” is an invention by some useful idiots.
RationalRose -I’m not even going to copy your Zionist propaganda because it’s been posted here many times before. All I’ll say is -any good that has occurred would have happenned anyway. Either Moshiach would be here already or even if not, there would have been a big growth in Yiddishkeit there.
Avi K -“Health, on the contrary, Turkey’s Jews live in constant fear and must toe the government line.”
All I can say is anyone who doesn’t live in constant fear in Israel, esp. now with the looming threat of war with Iran, is because they are drunk with the Zionist’s Kool-aid!
Josh31 -“Such Chutzpa against the Jewish People is in effect chutzpa against He who chose the Jewish people.
Blaming Israel for all the problems of the Middle East is the Blood Libel of the 21th Century.”
The ultimate Muchuzafim are the Zionists to create a Medina against Hashem’s will. And they are the cause of a lot of Tzoros that Jews have in this world. And it’s not me saying this, but many Gedolim!
You do believe in Hashem, don’t you?
Yserbius,
1. According to Rav Soloveichik almoist all Jews would have assimilated in the national depression following the Holocaust if not for the State.
2. On the contrary, it is a Tora obligation according to Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot) and according to Rambam (Hilchot Megilla veChanuka 3:1-3) it is at least a very good thing.
3. Most gedolim hold that we are in the time of Ikveta d’Mashicha.
yserbius- “chachomim hzharu bedivreichem”.
To write that ‘the whole of ikvesei demeshichei is an invention by some useful idiots’ puts you perilously close to be an “apikorus” with very serious consequences.. See mishne “Kol yisroel” in Sanhedrin and the explanation what “Apikorus’ means. (mevazeh talmidei chachomim).There were , and are, plnety of Gedolim and Poskim – and not only the ones who lean towards Zionism- who consider that we are in the time of “ikvei demeshiche”.
Avi K -“1. According to Rav Soloveichik almoist all Jews would have assimilated in the national depression following the Holocaust if not for the State.
2. On the contrary, it is a Tora obligation according to Ramban (Sefer HaMitzvot) and according to Rambam (Hilchot Megilla veChanuka 3:1-3) it is at least a very good thing.”
1. To quote you -“He’s a Daas Yochid.” Never would have happenned.
2. No Rishon would hold – to make a State based on Kefira!
Sam2 -“How is what you endorse not an Issur D’Oraisa of Lo S’chonem?”
Last, but not least. First of all, if you steal something from a Goy – you are Mechuyav to return it. Acc. to the Gedolim that it’s Ossur to make and have a State in Golus – you have to stop this Issur – so “Lo Sechonem” wouldn’t apply.
Second of all, even if there would be an Issur, since making peace by giving up the State would cut down almost all terror and wars – you’d be Mechuyav to give it up because of “V’chai Bohem”!
Health: Karka Einah Nigzeles. The Goyim never had the R’shus to become Ba’alim on it. (And even if you Pasken Yeish Kinyan L’AKU”M L’hafkia…, they still can’t actually own the land. Eretz Yisrael belongs to the Jews L’olam Va’ed.) Whether or not making a State was Assur, you can’t fix that by being Over on another Issur D’oraisa.
And you can’t know that it would be Pikuach Nefesh to give up Israel. It might be. Or it might be worse. But I don’t think that your assumption about what world terror organizations would be satisfied with even creates a Safek Pikuach Nefesh to get out of this Issur D’oraisa.
(I could also make the claim that this Issur is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor because it’s related to Avodah Zarah and because the Passuk directly implies it, but I’m really not in the mood to discuss that at the moment.)
Sam2 -“Health: Karka Einah Nigzeles. The Goyim never had the R’shus to become Ba’alim on it. (And even if you Pasken Yeish Kinyan L’AKU”M L’hafkia…, they still can’t actually own the land. Eretz Yisrael belongs to the Jews L’olam Va’ed.) Whether or not making a State was Assur, you can’t fix that by being Over on another Issur D’oraisa.”
So you just cleared it up yourself. Since we aren’t allowed to have a Gov. there and the Goyim can’t own the land -then we can give the Gov. to Turkey. So No “Lo Sechohname”! (Didn’t give them anything.)
“(I could also make the claim that this Issur is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor because it’s related to Avodah Zarah and because the Passuk directly implies it, but I’m really not in the mood to discuss that at the moment.)”
If you did make such a claim -you’d be the first one I know to claim “Lo Sechohname” is an Abizreyhu D’avodah Zora!
Health: I hope I’m not the first. I honestly don’t know. But I don’t think it’s such a Dachuk claim. And you can’t brush off Lo S’chonem like that. You can’t say “Goyim can’t own the land anyway” and make the Issur D’oraisa go away. That’s precisely what the Issur is. It’s giving them the land, even if they can’t technically acquire it.
Sam -“And you can’t brush off Lo S’chonem like that. You can’t say “Goyim can’t own the land anyway” and make the Issur D’oraisa go away. That’s precisely what the Issur is. It’s giving them the land, even if they can’t technically acquire it.”
If anything -this would be a problem when a Jew sells his land to a Goy in EY, which happens all the time.
Having them take over the Gov. is more like a business deal which is Muttar to have with Goyim. You’re giving them things and in exchange they are providing Gov. services.
Health, on the contrary, selling individual Goyim land in EY does not obviate our sovereignty. However, turning over the entire country is a bittul of the mitzva to conquer EY. Moroever, as the government does not own the land but is only a caretaker for Am Yisrael until the ownership of the nachalot can be established such a transaction would have no force or effect.
The Gedolim are gifted brilliant rabbonim and talmid chachanim who are have disagreements with each other. They are not infalliable.and the huge differences of opinion amongst them cause political deadlock and heart breaking communal discord.
Health, what on earth has following the particular Gedolim of your choice got to do with belief in Hashem. Is one Gadol greater than the other?? What happened to respect and basic decency/ We all believe in Hashem, we all love the Torah, we all also have lots of different opinions and beliefs, why denegrate those that with a different opinion?
My family lived under both Turkish and British rule in Jerusalem and nothing compares to having a Jewish State. Relatives imprisoned by the British remember the great kindness of Rebbenitzen Batsheva Kanievsky z”I.
The present sharp ugly divisions spoken of between Zionist and Charedi are enflamed for political purposes and to give credence to those extremists among both secular and frum that wish to insult and rip apart the Jewish people.
Is one Gadol greater than the other??
Yes, absolutely, some Gedolim most definitely are greater than other Gedolim.
Avi K -“However, turning over the entire country is a bittul of the mitzva to conquer EY.”
Even if you’re correct and there are Rishonim that hold this -this would only apply to Frum Jews and right now Frum Jews aren’t strong enough to conquer anything. So the Mitzva can not be in force nowadays. But the Chiyuv not to anger the Goyim with a Treif State is. And I told you a million times these Rishonim would Not hold that EY has to be conquered and a State established based on Kefira, like the Medina is!
“Moroever, as the government does not own the land but is only a caretaker for Am Yisrael until the ownership of the nachalot can be established such a transaction would have no force or effect.”
Nooone said to give them any land.
Give them the Gov. and just make sure noone takes them to a Din Torah! 😉 LOL.
Techina -Is the word, not tahini.
“Health, what on earth has following the particular Gedolim of your choice got to do with belief in Hashem. Is one Gadol greater than the other?? What happened to respect and basic decency/ We all believe in Hashem, we all love the Torah, we all also have lots of different opinions and beliefs, why denegrate those that with a different opinion?”
That post wasn’t to you -so why are you answering for him?
I didn’t ask you if you’re a believer!
“My family lived under both Turkish and British rule in Jerusalem and nothing compares to having a Jewish State.”
So what? I also had. And nothing compares to living under Turkish rule.
“So what? I also had. And nothing compares to living under Turkish rule.”
Nonsense. Free access to the Kotel and kivrei tzadikim. More funding for Torah study than any other country on Earth. There are plenty of advantages to the Medinah.
Consider this also, Eretz Yisrael is once again an Emunah factory. Hundreds of thousands of baalei tshuvah and plenty who come to yiddishkite despite their assimilated upbringing in chutz laaretz, especially your beloved USA.
The baalei teshuva become as such despite the medina, not because of it.
Breslever -“Nonsense. Free access to the Kotel and kivrei tzadikim. More funding for Torah study than any other country on Earth. There are plenty of advantages to the Medinah.”
I didn’t know Breslov was also drunk on the Zionist Kool-aid!
They had access before ’48, in spite of the Zionist lies.
There would be even more Torah learning if not for the Zionists.
And the reason they give Yeshivas money -is to try and control them.
avhaben – Then it should be so in chutz l’aaretz too (it’s not).
Health – Free access? Free to put up mechitzot, read from siddurim etc? History records otherwise. I suppose you believe that’s a zionist plot though.
More Torah learning without the medinah funding millions into it? Then it should be so in chutz l’aaretz too (it’s not).
The medinah is far from perfect, but I’m not about to pretend it somehow slipped through the net of hashgacha pratis. According to the Rambam’s first principle of faith, it’s heresy to suggest that the Jewish people’s return to Eretz Yisrael is anything other than the will of Hashem. So too, I think it’s pretty shameful that you would let the medinah be your excuse not to fulfill the mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael and follow the pretty clear directives of tzaddikim from the Gra/Besht to today.
Breslever -“Health – Free access? Free to put up mechitzot, read from siddurim etc? History records otherwise. I suppose you believe that’s a zionist plot though.”
They didn’t need Mechizos – they didn’t have “Women of the wall”!
And of course they Davened with their own Siddurim. If you’ve seen any records (which I doubt) then you’re right – it’s a Zionist lie. I spoke myself to s/o who went to the Kosel before ’48.
“More Torah learning without the medinah funding millions into it? Then it should be so in chutz l’aaretz too (it’s not).”
Didn’t you just read my post – as to why?!?!
“The medinah is far from perfect, but I’m not about to pretend it somehow slipped through the net of hashgacha pratis. According to the Rambam’s first principle of faith, it’s heresy to suggest that the Jewish people’s return to Eretz Yisrael is anything other than the will of Hashem. So too, I think it’s pretty shameful that you would let the medinah be your excuse not to fulfill the mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael and follow the pretty clear directives of tzaddikim from the Gra/Besht to today.”
Now you sound like Avi-K. Are you him? The Zionists have free will to rebel against Hashem -so it’s Not his Rozon.
And I posted before that since it’s a Sakana to live in Israel -there is No Chiyuv. And some even hold it’s Ossur!
Right after the 6 day war, virtually all Jews saw it as the Hand of G-d. Since then the dark clouds of Kefirah have emerged, some from the Left, but plenty from the Right as we can see here in this coffee room.
“They didn’t need Mechizos – they didn’t have “Women of the wall”!”
Mechitza is a Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai, how can you suggest it isn’t needed?
Regardless, were they free to put them up?
“And of course they Davened with their own Siddurim. If you’ve seen any records (which I doubt) then you’re right – it’s a Zionist lie. I spoke myself to s/o who went to the Kosel before ’48.”
According to the Turkish firman, they were not permitted to bring seforim to the Kotel. Whether that firman was actually enforced or not, I don’t know nor do I care. One does not need to have any knowledge of history to know of the antagonism of the arabs toward Yidden.
Also, you have again dodged the point. Were we free? Would we all have been allowed to fulfill the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael?
“Now you sound like Avi-K. Are you him? The Zionists have free will to rebel against Hashem -so it’s Not his Rozon.”
I’m not Avi-K.
The zionists have free will, but if you are implying that the formation of and existence of the medinah along with the Yidden who move to and live in Eretz Yisrael is not His razon, then you are denying the fundamental principal that everything comes from Hashem.
In that case, there’s no point continuing this discussion as it seems your lack of emunah stems from the fact you simply don’t want to believe.
I believe that you need to take an active part in bringing the geula, that means both torah and avoda, like learning and building eretz yisrael. While living in eretz yisrael i understand that its not perfect (no place is) i also understand that that it may be a government run by jews and yet not really a “Jewish state” so if i need to serve in the army i do and thank hashem that when i do so im being mekayem the mitzva of living in eretz yisrael and protecting other yidden. If that makes me a zionist then ok im a zionist, there are worse tags to be assosiated with….
jsh31- can you explain what you mean? what has changed?
Am I alone in being uncomfortable with commenters who treat psukim, gemarot, rishonim and ahronim like used newspapers with which to roll up and whack each other across the nose?
Health my family did not go to the Kotel before 1948, they lived by the Kotel for many generations, and tales of Arab intimidation of families and especially young women highlight the tensions of living under Ottoman rule, the Turks officially ruled the area, but the locals were Arabs, huge difference. I am not talking history book reading, but the daily life of family members. In Jerusalem there was much support for the creation of the State, especially from those Jews evicted from their homes by the Jordanian army, recent years has seen a hardening of antipathy, started all those years ago when certain rabbis deliberately chose to attack the state as well as their rabbinical rivals. Check out the disgraceful attacks on esteemed rabbinical figures such as Rabbi Kook, Rabbi Goren and in our era the highly regarded Chief Rabbi Lau.
We understand you hate the zionists and attribute all that is wrong to the zionist liars and plot. Growing up with arabic intrepreters I recall for many years the Arab states would not call Israel by its name but refer to it as the ” ZIONIST ENTITY”, it is loathesome to hear a Jew espouse the same vitriol. Last month in the Zionist state I saw doctors treating members of virulently anti zionist neturei karta after a road accident, it felt sickening to see the wounded being helped as they actually wore palestinian badges in support of the terrorists more than happy to kill the very medical staff assisting these people.
If you are happy and safe in America good for you, but to pour your hate over those keeping Eretz Yisrael safe seems grotesque. Quoting the Satmar Rav is not going to get any brownie points from me, since when did Satmar understand what Shalom bayis means, let alone ahavat yisrael? They cannot keep peace between their own leading rabbis and brothers.
Breslever -“Mechitza is a Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai, how can you suggest it isn’t needed?
Regardless, were they free to put them up?”
The Minhag or tradition was that women didn’t go. It wasn’t the tourist attraction it is now. We didn’t need to make a Medina, against Hashem’s will, to make all the Mekomos Hakedoshim into tourist attractions!
“According to the Turkish firman, they were not permitted to bring seforim to the Kotel. Whether that firman was actually enforced or not, I don’t know nor do I care. One does not need to have any knowledge of history to know of the antagonism of the arabs toward Yidden.
Also, you have again dodged the point. Were we free? Would we all have been allowed to fulfill the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael?”
During the time of Turkey’s rule there wasn’t the desire by many Jews to live there. The Freye only decided to live there when Zionism picked up. After the second WW -Jews tried to move anywhere they could.
“The zionists have free will, but if you are implying that the formation of and existence of the medinah along with the Yidden who move to and live in Eretz Yisrael is not His razon, then you are denying the fundamental principal that everything comes from Hashem.”
No, it’s not! We have free will to do what we want whether it’s good or bad. This is a fundamental principLE (not s/o in charge of schools.) which is called “Bechira” in Judaism. How come you never heard of this?
“In that case, there’s no point continuing this discussion as it seems your lack of emunah stems from the fact you simply don’t want to believe.”
No, I don’t believe in Zionism or the State. It’s Ossur right now acc. to almost e/o to have a State based on Kefira. The only question amongst the Gedolim is what to do about it now that it’s here. Except for a very few e/o held you’re not allowed to make such a Medina!
If you look at the UN website, you will find documents from Yidden living in Eretz Yisroel in the ’40’s, petitioning the UN to not create a “Jewish” State. Even then frum residents of EY were opposed.
Yes, prior to the advent of Zionism, with the Zionists riling up the Arabs to kill Jews, we did have access to the Kosel. But even if we didn’t, that wouldn’t justify creating the zionist state.
Goren was a bad apple. He not only tried to circumvent Jewish Law, he actually worked to increase mamzeirus by falsely mattiring mamzers.
“The Minhag or tradition was that women didn’t go. It wasn’t the tourist attraction it is now. We didn’t need to make a Medina, against Hashem’s will, to make all the Mekomos Hakedoshim into tourist attractions!”
So women should just not daven at the wall or kivrei tzaddikim? Fantastic!
“No, it’s not! We have free will to do what we want whether it’s good or bad. This is a fundamental principLE (not s/o in charge of schools.) which is called “Bechira” in Judaism. How come you never heard of this?”
Of course I have. How come you have never heard of ain od milvado? Just because you don’t understand how free will can exist in harmony with everything coming from Hashem, doesn’t mean that it isn’t the case.
“No, I don’t believe in Zionism or the State.”
That should have no impediment on you living in Eretz Yisrael.
“It’s Ossur right now acc. to almost e/o to have a State based on Kefira. The only question amongst the Gedolim is what to do about it now that it’s here. Except for a very few e/o held you’re not allowed to make such a Medina!”
So it seems the only one stuck to the past is you. The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Ovadia Yosef, all the big tzaddikim from litvish, Belzer/Gerrer Rebbeim etc all knew that there is a clear and overriding issue of pikuach nefesh that dictates how we must relate to the medinah.
You personally believe Yidden living in Eretz Yisrael would be SAFER without the medinah. That’s fine. You’ll forgive me however if I, and others, side with the opinion of Gedolei Yisrael instead.
Your nostalgic dreams of Ottoman Turkish rule are a modern day fairy tale. The facts on the ground are such:
1. The medinah exists.
2. It’s facilitating the fulfillment of the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael and studying Torah in Eretz Yisrael en masse.
3. Ceeding land presents a clear danger to the lives of Yidden and is assur d’oraita.
4. Hashem runs the World. Don’t like it? Take it up with Him. I advise doing so from Eretz Yisrael, preferably the Kotel.
vochindik: nothing in your eyes and in the eyes of those who hate the medinah will convince you of the justification of the medinah, so i won’t even try.
I will,however,say that if you would have just one thousandth of Rav Shlomo Goren”s zz’l knowledge , you would be a rosh yeshiva.
tahini – The word is Techina and Kosel.
“Health my family did not go to the Kotel before 1948, they lived by the Kotel for many generations, and tales of Arab intimidation of families and especially young women highlight the tensions of living under Ottoman rule, the Turks officially ruled the area, but the locals were Arabs, huge difference. I am not talking history book reading, but the daily life of family members.”
Are you kidding? The English were in charge, not the Turks, since WW1 and by that time the Zionists had already caused great hatred to the Jews by the Arabs.
“In Jerusalem there was much support for the creation of the State, especially from those Jews evicted from their homes by the Jordanian army,”
Of course there was -the British loved the arabs and hated the Jews. And even nowadays -nothing has changed.
“Last month in the Zionist state I saw doctors treating members of virulently anti zionist neturei karta after a road accident, it felt sickening to see the wounded being helped as they actually wore palestinian badges in support of the terrorists more than happy to kill the very medical staff assisting these people.”
Your self-hatred is appalling. You’re upset that the Israeli medical community treats NK, but the fact that they treat Arab terrorists doesn’t bother you! And the terrorists have actually killed Jews -it’s not just speech.
“If you are happy and safe in America good for you, but to pour your hate over those keeping Eretz Yisrael safe seems grotesque.”
Hashem keeps the Jews safe, noone else. We just have to make Histadlus.
Breslever -“So women should just not daven at the wall or kivrei tzaddikim? Fantastic!”
That’s right – you don’t make a State against the Torah, just so women can go Daven.
“Of course I have. How come you have never heard of ain od milvado? Just because you don’t understand how free will can exist in harmony with everything coming from Hashem, doesn’t mean that it isn’t the case.”
Hashem allows it, but it doesn’t mean he agrees to it!
“That should have no impediment on you living in Eretz Yisrael.”
I posted many times -you don’t have to because it’s a Mokom Sakana.
“So it seems the only one stuck to the past is you. The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Ovadia Yosef, all the big tzaddikim from litvish, Belzer/Gerrer Rebbeim etc all knew that there is a clear and overriding issue of pikuach nefesh that dictates how we must relate to the medinah.”
Therefore what? So I can hold like the Gedolim that say we should even dismantle it now!
“Your nostalgic dreams of Ottoman Turkish rule are a modern day fairy tale. The facts on the ground are such:
1. The medinah exists.”
Hopefully not for long!
“2. It’s facilitating the fulfillment of the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael and studying Torah in Eretz Yisrael en masse.”
Yea, actually Jews lived there and had Yeshivos there before the Medina!
“3. Ceeding land presents a clear danger to the lives of Yidden and is assur d’oraita.”
I said give up the whole country. But as for ceeding land lots of Gedolim held you could for peace, like Rav Schach zt’l.
“4. Hashem runs the World. Don’t like it? Take it up with Him. I advise doing so from Eretz Yisrael, preferably the Kotel.”
Yes, he does run the world and Moshiach will come much quicker without the Medina in existance!
Health, you have gone far beyond the Satmar shitta and have crossed more than one line thereby exiting our Machana and joining the Machana of Gog U’Magog. Goodbye.
“jsh31- can you explain what you mean? what has changed?”
Unfortunately the passage of time weakens the impact of a Nes (miracle) by many. Extremism both on the left and the right is driven by a lack in the Mida (personal character trait) of HaKaras HaTov (appreciation of the good). It starts with denying the good than people have done (such as the Medina and IAF pilots in the 6 day war) and progresses to denial of the good that G-d has done. The denial deepens and can become outright Kefira.
“Quoting the Satmar Rav is not going to get any brownie points from me, since when did Satmar understand what Shalom bayis means, let alone ahavat yisrael? They cannot keep peace between their own leading rabbis and brothers.”
Tahini: I really didn’t want to chime in on this thread, but by denigrating the satmar rebbe zatzal, I didn’t have much choice. The satmar rebbe’s ahavas yisroel was legendary, I suggest you read up on him a little. And mixing a great personality of yesteryear with the current politics of his great-nephews that had no bearing in his lifetime is a real cheap shot.
Unfortunately, many chasidisos are plagued by infighting today, that gives you no excuse to single out satmar as lacking in shalom because you disagree with their shitta. If lubavitch has 2 factions, but doesn’t believe in giving back land EVEN IF IT PUTS JEWS AT RISK , does that make them greater ohevi yisroel?
Somebody, earlier in the thread mentioned non-zionism. I like this terminology. I smoke. I have friends that don’t. They aren’t anti-smoking, they would just rather not smoke, buy into smoking or perhaps take a hand from it, because they have reasons to believe it will cause ‘nothing but harm’ and hey see no logic in it. They are non-smokers. On that basis, I am a non-zionist.
P.S Smoking does suck. If you don’t already smoke, don’t smoke! I started at 12 and I am planning to give up when I resettle and start working again. My youth and adolescence was wasted in many ways and, if you’re interested I am only in very early stages of gerus. Non-the-less, my Hashkafa is basically taking leaps to the right at every point immediately. You may say, typical Giur!
Health – did you just correct tahini’s post from “Kotel” to “Kosel”??!
If you said this as a joke, you are probably 12, and if you were serious then that’s just plain gayvadik and ignorant of you. Even Ashkenazim who know dikduk admit that there is no letter “saf” in the original Hebrew. If anything, it’s “kothel”. You are being extremely obnoxious, and I don’t know why anyone is still paying you any attention. You certainly don’t deserve it, the way you talk to people.
curiosity- don’t worry, nobody is paying attention at that gasbag…
Are you a yid shomer torah and mitzvos? priorities, and no i am not a zioni
Josh31 -“Health, you have gone far beyond the Satmar shitta and have crossed more than one line thereby exiting our Machana and joining the Machana of Gog U’Magog. Goodbye.”
I got news for you -I never was in your “Machana”! As to whether I’m in the team of Gog U’magog -I like to think I’m in the team of “Real Jews” – that have real Torah principles!
ROB – “curiosity- don’t worry, nobody is paying attention at that gasbag”
So much for your civility; and you call yourself a Rabbi!?!
That’s what happens when you peel off the outer layers of Zionists -what’s underneath is exposed.
And you’re not even embarrassed to do this “put-down” in Elul.
Shame on you!
health- I have not stopped laughing this morning since reading your posting. You have not stopped accusing millions of Jews of being pagans, kofrim, you have denigrated tens ofv thousands of jews who gave their time ,and some their life,to protect their brotehrs and sisters, not to mention the phantasmagoric ideas you carry around about Eretz Yisroel , and you call ME uncivil???
rabbiofberlin -“health- I have not stopped laughing this morning since reading your posting.”
Yes, Letzonus is the way you and your kind evade any Mussar.
“You have not stopped accusing millions of Jews of being pagans, kofrim,”
So I guess e/o who is a Jew and esp. if they happen to live in Israel, are all Shomrei Torah Oomitzvos? You keep living in your little Utopia.
“you have denigrated tens ofv thousands of jews who gave their time ,and some their life,to protect their brotehrs and sisters, not to mention the phantasmagoric ideas you carry around about Eretz Yisroel , and you call ME uncivil???”
Yes, uncivil and uncouth! And btw, answer my question that I posted on the other topic.
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