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This is a poll, nothing more. Please also include your definition of Zionist.
I’m a Torah Jew; not a Zionist.
Yes. I believe the resettlement of the Land and the return of the Jewish Nation to the Land is the beginning of the Geulah and will pave the way for Mashiach Tzedkeinu,
Nowadays, we are all Zionists.
what makes you a zionist?
If you define “zionist” in the way that the Israeli ruling class does, namely as one in favor in establishing a secular state in Eretz Yisrael in which Jews can fully participate without having to deny their Jewishness, and without have to observe Torah and Mitzvos – no Orthodox Jews can be a zionist.
The Dati Leumi has a different definition, but they don’t run Eretz Yisrael. No Dati Leumi has ever been even a serious candidate for a leadership position in the government. They appear to be “suckers” who serve a secular elite that behind their backs regards them as fools.
I think Englishman put it well. Some feel the same way. Unfortunately, the Zionists have managed to fool people into thinking that one can be both.
A Zionist is one who believes in and supports pre-messianic Jewish sovereignty in Eretz Yisrael.
A Zionist is also one who supports the Zionist State of Israel. Here, it gets a little more gray-area, despite the absolute and innate tarfus of the State, as a non-Zionist may still support Israel only because Israel has imposed its ruler-ship over our brethren, so we want all our brothers and sisters safe and sound, BE”H, and that means working with what’s there, which is the Zionist State of Israel.
Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, The Five Addresses, page 36
“The Mizrachi must also understand that we do not use the phrase “Zionism plus religion” or “religious Zionism”. For us, there is only one unique noun – Torah. Israel is holy and dear because the Torah sanctified it and because the Torah’s future is tied to it.”
Interview with Rav Soloveitchik, Maariv, 12/15/1975
Q: “Do you consider yourself a Zionist?”
A: “If Zionism refers to a technical concept or to belonging to some established body, then I am not part of it, though I am formally a member of the Mizrachi and I pay dues. If, however, Zionism represents love of the Jewish people and devotion to Eretz Yisroel as the land of our forefathers – then I certainly am a Zionist. From my early childhood, my father z”l studied with me the areas of zeraim, hilchos terumos uma’aseros, matnos aniyim u’bikurim. The concepts of the kedushas ha’aretz, the tum’ah of chutz la’aretz, the temporary or permanent sanctification of the land are deeply rooted in my heart……”
I believe that a Zionist is someone who believes that the founding of the State of Israel was a good idea, and I certainly do not think it was.
Q: “Do you consider yourself a Zionist?”
A: “If Zionism refers to a technical concept or to belonging to some established body, then I am not part of it, though I am formally a member of the Mizrachi and I pay dues. If, however, Zionism represents love of the Jewish people and devotion to Eretz Yisroel as the land of our forefathers – then I certainly am a Zionist. From my early childhood, my father z”l studied with me the areas of zeraim, hilchos terumos uma’aseros, matnos aniyim u’bikurim. The concepts of the kedushas ha’aretz, the tum’ah of chutz la’aretz, the temporary or permanent sanctification of the land are deeply rooted in my heart……”
This.
My respected friend, Mr. David Ulman, Shalom and with eternal blessing!
First I would like to express my gratitude to you for contacting me to request clarification with regard to the holiday of Independence without judging or criticizing from afar. Now let me respond to the matter with clarity.
a) The copy of the advertisement that you sent to me is indeed correct. Furthermore, this event was attended by the Women of Agudath Israel and Pirhei Agudath Israel. The reason that their attendance was not mentioned [in the ad] is simply due to the fact that they decided to attend later [after the flyer was published]
? 2) Is it worthy of celebration? 3) Is it worthy for the members of Agudath Israel to unite with the members of Mizrachi in a fashion which allows us to express our approach and influence others to act according to the spirit of Agudath Israel?In my humble opinion, one must respond to these questions as follows:
1) The independence of Israel and the establishment of the State are important events in the life of our nation. It is worthy for members of Agudath Israel to participate when there is a possibility to express their thoughts and views before a large forum in order to influence them regarding the approach of the Agudah and to refute the negative sentiments against Agudath Israel.
2) In my opinion, despite all of the defects and deficiencies in the leadership of the State of Israel, its mere existence, which happened via revealed miracles, is of great significance that deserves recognition and appreciation. This recognition must be publicly expressed for two reasons: First, because the truth must be expressed. Second, that all should know and recognize that our war against the Government of Israel is not targeted against the existence of the State.
3) Participation with Mizrachi in a fashion that Agudath Israel is free to express its views was recognized as the correct approach by creating a religious front that Agudath Israel is always willing to renew.
Although I know that we disagree with Mizrachi on our fundamental beliefs, and in no way are our views consistent with each
other, and consequently our actions are totally different, still there
are many issues on which we can work together and, through this,
strengthen the ultra-religious and its influence on the life of the nation.
indeed an important milestone in the life of our nation, our relationship to it, therefore, is positive, and our participation is obligatory.
and therefore we did attend. It is noteworthy that nothing was done without consulting with us. We
learning Bible, speaking Hebrew and Erez Yisrael. The populace cannot understand our concerns and, moreover, when we emphasize our positive views they will accept us and allow us to fight the falsehoods. In addition, I must express that this attitude of ours is not unique to our life in America. We acted this way in Lithuania as well despite the fact that then, as now, we were totally zealous concerning anything that, God forbid, is not in accordance with the spirit of Torah.
We did not regress because of persecution, denouncement and sometimes even suffering, sorrow and much damage to our holy Yeshiva.
With this I am your friend, I respect you and bless you,
Eliyahu Meir Bloch
The State is innately kadosh as it is the realization of the Tora obligation to establish Jewish sovereignty in EY as stated explicitly by Ramban. It is the obligation of every Jew who is able to make aliya and take part in building the State, each according to his individual talents. Those Zionists who are religious or traditional want the State to be based on Jewish law whereas those who are not, with the exception of a small minority, want it to be generally based on Jewish principles.
Avi: Give it a rest. Even if you hold it’s fulfilling a Mitzvah there would still be no Kedusha in the state. That’s not what Kedusha means. And denying that there are those secular Israelis who want to see the end of Frumkeit (or at least serious Torah learning and Shabbos and stuff; I don’t think they care if we shake a Lulav or not) is just denying reality. Just like thinking that every secular Israeli wants that is plain not true.
Avi K – “It is the obligation of every Jew who is able to make aliya and take part in building the State, each according to his individual talents.”
Not in our day and age. The Zionists have cause such hatred to Jews that a Jew is not required to live there because it’s a Mokom Sakana!
I am not a Zionist, but I am an anti-antiZionist. In the goyish world people who are anti-Zionist are anti-Semitic, and I feel like I must side with the Zionists against them, even if Zionism is krum in many ways. How can we side with the bloodthirsty enemy to bash Zionist Jews, even if their beliefs aren’t hashkafikly sound?
Englishman: Whose Torah? The one I got was given on a hilltop in the Sinai and talks a great deal about the importance of Eretz Yisrael. Regardless of any legitimate and/or illegitimate grievances against the government, the charedi hatred of the Land of Israel and the Jews who live there is uncalled for. I had the dubious pleasure of listening to a drasha this past shabbos where the rabbi could not think of anything better to talk about than how terrible Israel is for farming. Why? Because the parsha says that Israel is good for farming. I’ve heard all of the reasons for non-Zionism and even a couple of nearly-valid excuses for anti-Zionism but nothing that justifies the way some people get so upset — the way they can’t stand to hear a good word about Israel. Where does the rabid hatred come from?
Btw, this is going to be my last post for a while since I’m leaving for yeshiva in Israel today.
Not in our day and age. The Zionists have cause such hatred to Jews that a Jew is not required to live there because it’s a Mokom Sakana!
Cite?
ItcheSrulik, hatzlacha in the yeshiva!
takahmamash -“Cite?”
I was being Meikel. I remember at the start of the Infadata in the 80’s some Poskim said you should not go there because of Sakana. I don’t remember who. I Just said you’re Not required to.
The Satmar Rebbe zt’l held it’s better to live in other lands than under Zionist rule -and he wasn’t talking about when it was dangerous.
sam2, AviK and others- In another thread (the one about hatikvah) I mentione the Ramban in sefer hamitzvos.He absolutely believes that Eretz Yisroel has kedusah always and that it is great mitzvah to build eretz yisroel and to take it away from the gentiles. (Mitzvah 4 in the Ramban,s count after the Rambam)
Sam2: As long as you were expressing halachic opinions, I was able to admire you from a distance. Although I disagree with some of your psakim, given your young age, your halachic knowledge is very impressive, and I think you have great potential. Please keep it up.
That said, your narrowmindedness in defining kedusha and hashkafic opinions on Eretz Yisrael and Medinat Yisrael has made me skeptical about you. If you intend to grow into an American halachic technocrat, you’ll be just fine. But if you have greatness in mind, you’ll have to come to Israel and spend some quality and quantity time here. Speak with great people with great minds and listen carefully to them. I’ll point you in the right direction if needed. Your hashkafic and historical knowledge is currently limited and is in serious need of breadth and depth.
I say all this with minor disappointmnt but still with tremendous respect. As an old man, I admire young minds full of love of Torah and kavod habrios. But there’s more to the story than encyclopedic knowledge of modern day psak. I wish you hatzlachah.
The Satmar Rebbe zt’l held it’s better to live in other lands than under Zionist rule -and he wasn’t talking about when it was dangerous.
I guess it’s good I’m not Satmar. There are obviously poskim who hold otherwise.
I am an Eretz Yisraelist. I am not in favor of a secular Medina, but that is what we have, and it is our obligation to love E”Y. Just as you don’t stop loving a child who is off the derech, so too do we not stop loving our Eretz Hakedosha, because her Medina is OTD.
Old man: Thank you. I appreciate the input. And I very specifically said that there is no Kedusha in the state. I would never deny Kedushas Ha’aretz. I spent a very long time working out what the Rishonim hold on Kedusha Rishona, Kedushas Mechitzos, and whatever other types of Kedushas Ha’aretz some might hold exist. I was just getting very frustrated with certain posters’ obvious attempts at angering those who hold differently about the Medinah than them. And if you recall from some of my other threads, I think “Hashkafa”, as most people use it, is just an excuse to ignore Halachah, bash other Jews, or both. But it was nice to hear from you and thank you for your advice (I was Zoche to spend a bit of time learning in Israel, during which I believe I learned a lot and was able to personally speak to several of the Gedolim about things-some Halachic, some personal).
old man -“Sam2: As long as you were expressing halachic opinions, I was able to admire you from a distance. That said, your narrowmindedness in defining kedusha and hashkafic opinions on Eretz Yisrael and Medinat Yisrael has made me skeptical about you. Your hashkafic and historical knowledge is currently limited and is in serious need of breadth and depth.”
Sorry to disagree with you old man, but even though me and Sam have our disagreements, over here he is right on the money.
Maybe you had a senior moment, who knows?
E/o knows about the Machlokes about Kidsha L’sheyta Oh Kidsha L’osid Lovoh. He wasn’t talking about that. He said the State, in other words the Medina. If you think the Medina that is based on Kefira has any Kedusha, you are sadly mistaken!
I am a tinok shenisba bein haTzonistim. After reading so many times “erezt zavat chalav udvash” (12 positive times in the Torah) and so many times davening the absolutely depressing musaf yom tov, and contemplating the comming need to buy burial plots in chul, we made the move. The time was right for us, and while we miss our home kehilla, we don’t really look back. My two cents, if you are willing to shed some gashmius and security, it is indeed ‘Eretz asher lo techsar kol bah.
I don’t understand the question, this is a Jewish website. Zionism and Judaism are 2 complete opposites. I like to say my own thing that I thought of “I became a Jew not a Zionist”(I am a ger).
A Zionist is someone who recognizes that the State came into being and continues to exist through HaShem’s nissim. A Zionist is thankful to HaShem for giving us a State that can rescue Jews from danger, and supports Torah and Jews in so many ways. A Zionist recognizes that the State is imperfect and accepts the responsibility to improve the State.
Of course I am a Zionist. I have a hard time understanding how some people can deny the nissim and chesed performed by HaShem to give us a State.
cholent guy -“B. No Posek could have said that in regards to Sakana because I know of a city that has had more terrorism in the last 20 years than Israel for it’s whole existence. I know because I live there. What is this city, more dangerous than all others? It’s New York. Why doesn’t anyone ban living here? Hmm?”
Typical Zionist Lie! NY is plagued by crime, not terrorism. Except for 9/11, there is hardly any terrorist acts. And who says you should hang out in the bad neighborhoods?
While Israel OTOH experiences almost daily terrorist acts. What about the constant Arab stone throwing? What about the daily rocket attacks in the South? Just because there aren’t a lot of casulties from these doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And just because the Israeli gov. turns a blind eye to the constant terrorism – doesn’t mean e/o else should too!
DD, well-said. I amend my view slightly to incorporate your definition.
“Typical Zionist Lie!”
Health, you realize most Zionists today are religious Jews, right? Who do you think is out there risking their lives by settling the land? Not the chilonim. Stop talking about them like the Muslims and skinheads do. They’re your brothers, and you are starting to really sound like the anti-Semitic troll posters on goyish news websites.
to rebRY- :’Zionism and Judaism are two complete opposites”. WHY??
cholent guy -“You did not say which part of my comment was false. The fact is that NYC has had more casualties due to terror in the last 20 years than Israel in it’s entire existence.”
I don’t have to spell it out for you, but here it is -“because I know of a city that has had more terrorism in the last 20 years than Israel for it’s whole existence.”
You said terrorism, not casualties!
“We are on track for the lowest amount of terror in Israel proper since … Forever. There have been 2 victims so far this year. The reason there was an attack in Bulgaria is because the Bulgarians don’t know a bloody thing about counter-terrorism.”
So you’re a leftist lib -what do you mean by “Israel proper”?
It’s all EY!
Second of all, I said terrorist attacks, not casualties.
And I suppose the Bulgarian attack was against Bulgaria, nothing to do with Israelis and Israel.
“Arab Stone throwing”
“That is crime, not terror.”
Yep, you’re right again. They throw rocks only to steal your money. If you’d throw them a few Shekels, they wouldn’t.
Are you for real?!?
“daily rocket attacks”
“Most thank God, miss by miles and the iron dome, with Siyatey Dishmaya, should take care of the rest.”
Hey just because you/they haven’t had any recent casualties, doesn’t mean it’s not a terrorist attack.
“blind eye”
“You must be joking.”
Did I sound like I was joking? A country that doesn’t retaliate when it’s being attacked has failed in their basic duty to their citizens.
Curiosity -“Health, you realize most Zionists today are religious Jews, right? Who do you think is out there risking their lives by settling the land? Not the chilonim. Stop talking about them like the Muslims and skinheads do. They’re your brothers, and you are starting to really sound like the anti-Semitic troll posters on goyish news websites.”
Stop trying to sugar-coat everything.
If s/o lies -I’m going to call them out on it, even if they keep every other Mitzva of the Torah perfectly. There’s 613, not 612 or less.
Wow… Since when have I been sugar coating “everything”? All I said is that you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Besides, why do you feel such a burning need to call out someone who keeps 612 out of 613 of the mitzvahs? Kshot atzmecha, ve’achar kach kshot acheirim. The bottom line is that we have to defend the lives of Jews in EY. The IDF deserves our blessings for putting their lives on the line to do just that. Even if some of their manhigim take a kochi ve’otzem yadi approach. Hopefully everyone will be chozer btshuvah bimhera beyameinu. Let’s not lose our cool.
Sam2 do you believe in a hashkafa, or do you believe everyone who has one is trying to create loopholes? I’m just trying to understand what you said earlier.
Health, you sound like the prosecuting angel against those who live there.
“kochi ve’otzem yadi” From last week’s Parsha:
The Torah mentions about such such thinking, but does not equate it with the worst sins as the Anti-Zionists do. The Torah follows and says that one must remember that G-d gave you the power. No negatives are mentioned.
Shortly afterwards the Torah uses actual negatives with regards to those who view themselves as righteous.
Curiosity -“Kshot atzmecha, ve’achar kach kshot acheirim.”
I did when it comes to lying and manipulating. So I’ll continue to call people out on this.
Josh31 -“Health, you sound like the prosecuting angel against those who live there.
“kochi ve’otzem yadi” From last week’s Parsha:
The Torah mentions about such such thinking, but does not equate it with the worst sins as the Anti-Zionists do.”
Calling out Zionists is a Big Mitzva, not a Sin.
“The Torah follows and says that one must remember that G-d gave you the power. No negatives are mentioned.
Shortly afterwards the Torah uses actual negatives with regards to those who view themselves as righteous.”
Maybe you should check the bible again? The Torah does speak negatively against “kochi ve’otzem yadi” in the Parsha of the Tochecha.
Curiosity: In a nutshell-R’ Schachter points out that there are two types of Torah-Agaddah and Halachah. Most people (even the Tannaim and Amoraim) concentrate on one. R’ Schachter points out that the Gemara mentions that some Amoraim only learned in the Beis Medrash of Agaddah. And we see this throughout the ages. All of the Gedolim and Poskim had some sort of Agaddah to go with their Halachah-whether it was philosophy, Kaballah, Chassidus, quasi-Chassidus, Mussar, etc. So Agaddah is the parts of Torah that talk about the world, our relationship to HKBH, HKBH’s relationship to the world, etc. From those types of things we have Hashkafa. Hashkafa means an outlook on the world that is from a different Chelek of Torah than Halachah (you can exchange the words Nigleh and Nistar for Halachah and Agaddah during this entire discussion).
But the word “Hashkafa” as used nowadays is meaningless. It is an excuse that people make up. Because everything that someone has a “Hashkafa” on nowadays is a Halchic issue. And removing the Halachah from the issue and instituting a “Hashkafa” instead is wrong and destructive (and probably M’galeh Ponim Batorah Shelo K’halachah and therefore Apikorsus). How to deal with Yom Ha’atzma’ut is a Halachic Sugya. Everything can be found in the Gemara, and this is no exception. The issue of the Heter M’chirah is a Halachic Sugya. Going to college is a Halachic Sugya. Chalav Yisrael is a Halachic Sugya. Etc, etc. But people instead say (and this is what they’re saying, whether they explicitly state it that way or not), “I don’t care what the actual Halachah is. I want to be Meikel or Machmir on this issue and therefore I’m going to make a ‘Hashkafa’ out of it. My ‘Hashkafa’ is to avoid the Medinah and therefore Heter M’chirah is Assur, regardless of what the Sugya says. Or my ‘Hashkafa’ is that movies are okay, and therefore I’m going to watch things that Halachah might tell me are Assur to see.’ It’s doing what “feels right”, not doing what Halachah says, which is not what Orthodox Judaism is. It pigeonholes people into doing Halachic things that they might not think Halachically. Why can’t I not like the Medinah, why can’t I think it’s not such a good thing, yet at the same time be compelled by the Sugya to say Hallel on Yom Ha’atzma’ut? Why can’t I like the Medinah but think that the Beis HaLeivi and the Aruch Hashulchan are right and that Shmittah Bizman Hazeh is D’oraisa and therefore feel that the Heter M’chirah is untenable no matter how it’s done? It forces Halachic opinions on people because of unrelated Halachic opinions, all under the guise of a so-called “Hashkafa”.
Or, the other popular use of the word “Hashkafa” is just as meaningless and even more destructive. I constantly challenge people here to give a definition of “Modern Orthodox”, not only to prove that what many people think of “MO” is just inaccurate, but also to show that it’s meaningless because it’s undefinable. At best, some people have given a list of Halachic tendencies (or just plain bashing, but that’s not the point here) that often go together in left-wing circles (for want of a better phrase). All “Hashkafa” is in those types of conversations is a means of saying, “I’m better than you”. Someone might think that the “Chareidi” lifestyle can’t last, or that it’s a distortion of what the Torah wants, or are just jealous or afraid and therefore use the word “Chareidi” or “Yeshivish” as an insult to say that he or she is better than those people. Or someone will see someone else who is less Machmir than themselves and therefore they call them “Modern” because that shows that they are so much better. A quote I saw on here about a year ago said it best: “Everyone to the right of me is an extremist and everyone to the left isn’t Frum.” It’s a credo that people live by out of misplaced self-righteousness, insecurity, or just plain old self-absorption and, quite frankly, it’s disgusting. Everyone feels the need to validate themselves and the best way to do that is to invalidate everyone else. And it’s all done under the guise of “Hashkafa”.
So does Hashkafa exist? Of course. We have our Aggaddah. We have our Nistar. We have the Chalakim in Torah that don’t deal in Halachic issues. But what people commonly refer to as “Hashkafa” is meaningless and destructive.
ItcheSrulik:
“Whose Torah? The one I got was given on a hilltop in the Sinai and talks a great deal about the importance of Eretz Yisrael.”
Yes, the Torah undoubtedly attaches great significance to Eretz Yisroel; I don’t think anybody here would deny that. However, I think it is equally obvious that the original goal of the Zionist movement was to create a “new Jew”, and replace Torah and Mitzvos with secular nationalism, R”L. I believe this is what Englishman meant when he insinuated that Torah and Zionism are mutually exclusive.
“Regardless of any legitimate and/or illegitimate grievances against the government, the charedi hatred of the Land of Israel and the Jews who live there is uncalled for. I had the dubious pleasure of listening to a drasha this past shabbos where the rabbi could not think of anything better to talk about than how terrible Israel is for farming. Why? Because the parsha says that Israel is good for farming. I’ve heard all of the reasons for non-Zionism and even a couple of nearly-valid excuses for anti-Zionism but nothing that justifies the way some people get so upset — the way they can’t stand to hear a good word about Israel. Where does the rabid hatred come from?”
I have no idea; to say such a thing is is inexcusable and honestly, reminiscent of the meraglim. But please do not think (or suggest) that this is a widely-held attitude in the Chareidi world; far from it.
“Btw, this is going to be my last post for a while since I’m leaving for yeshiva in Israel today.”
Hatzlocha rabah!
dd:
“A Zionist is someone who recognizes that the State came into being and continues to exist through HaShem’s nissim. A Zionist is thankful to HaShem for giving us a State that can rescue Jews from danger, and supports Torah and Jews in so many ways. A Zionist recognizes that the State is imperfect and accepts the responsibility to improve the State.”
No, that’s only a religious Zionist. Ask a secular Zionist if he believes any of the above and he’ll laugh at you.
“thankful to HaShem for giving us a State that can rescue Jews from danger, and supports Torah and Jews in so many ways.”
Supports Torah in so many ways? How, by abducting Sephardi children, chopping their peyos off, and forcibly re-educating them? Or by trying to draft kolle yungerleit into the army? Definitely a rather mixed record, on that score, too.
A zionist is a “Jewish” Nationalist. He believes in Nationalism. He sometimes, though not all the times, attempts to couch his nationalism in pseudo-Jewish terms. He elevates the mitzvah of yishuv haaretz over all other mitzvos.
Health, that’s right.Blame the victims.You are motzi diba al haAretz and motzi shem ra on millins of Jews.
Sam2 – what of issues such as, but not limited to:
Wearing colored shirts. Is it assur if done in a respectful manner? How much should we push communities and talmidim to dress certain ways? Some communities in Israel were known to look down upon people who wore felt yarmulkas without an edge ribbon. They held felt yarmulkas HAD to have edge ribbons. Why is this wrong? How far does dress code go? Is jeans and a polo shirt okay?
Derech halimud. Who told those Amoraim which beis Medrash to spend more time in? Should a Yeshiva have a 4 hour night seder, or a 4:30 hour night seder? What about kollel guys? How many days a week should the high school boys have night seder? How long do we make mussar seder?
A small Jewish community is having a unity fair/community event and all affiliated Jewish institutions and organisations are attending, including orthodox, reform, and conservative ones. Should an Orthodox Yeshiva take part in the event (assuming it’s a 100% kosher event)? What if the city is bigger/smaller?
What if the Yeshiva will lose funding if it doesn’t participate, and that will cause a reduction in the amount of boys who will be zoche to go to a Yeshiva in the community the coming year?
What if it’s a frum unity event but modox institutions are participating?
How do we hold regarding negotiating with the Israeli government to reinstitute the Tal Law? Do we not negotiate and let them take bochurim to jail? Do we negotiate and try to ease the severity of the law? How long should we negotiate for? What sort of sacrifices are we willing to make to allow the majority to sit and learn?
Obviously, some of these issues are easier to label as “halacha” than others. Many of these issues are “hashkafic” issues. Our gedolim make some of these decisions with their daas Torah, but that daas Torah doesn’t come exclusively from the Shulchan Aruch. A hashkafa is just a word to describe a derech hachayim that comes from psak, mesorah, agadeta, maasei Rav, personal experience, and minhag. It’s not necessarily a “halachic psak” that kollel guys should wear ties, but a Rosh Yeshiva may say that’s the Yeshiva’s hashkafa, and demand the men follow it.
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