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For instance, if you get a bad cold for walking out without a jacket, can this be a kappara for loosing your temper the previous day or being rude to a fellow YWN poster?
No. It simply means you have entered an alternate universe where one can catch cold from walking out without a jacket.
A rebbe of mine way back when told a story of a person who used to bang his head against the wall constantly. When he had head pains, he would complain and say “what was my sin that I have these terrible head pains?”
The answer, of course, is that he was hitting his head against the wall. If you do silly things (including dressing inappropriately for the weather) then the punishment for that is you have to suffer the consequences for those silly things.
The Wolf
The Wolf
newbee: Yes it is so Pashut. The Makor for such a Shittah was a “Sefer” written with the intention of destroying the Halachic process and has no Halachic weight whatosever.
It’s neither. Running out without a jacket causes discomfort, not sickness, except in extreme cold where it causes hypothermia and frostbite.
Hundreds of years ago, people tortured themselves as part of their teshuvah. Obviously, we don’t do this, and it would be counterproductive for us and an aveirah, but I don’t think it’s so pashut to dismiss the idea that yissurim can be mechaper simply because they’re self inflicted.
DY: The Poskim came out very strongly against those who tortured themselves.
Anyone who “Mattired” suicide as a form of Teshuvah did so out of the mistaken assumption that the Rosh said it first. The Rosh never said that.
When i leave the house ten minutes late and then go nuts because i am catching every red light, i don’t think it is correct to blame my suffering (catching every red light, coming in late to work) on Gd.
it’s irrelevant whether or not you can know if one is exercising their bechira to be lazy. You can decide whether or not negligence still ‘counts’, and let Hashem decide when it applies.
Sam, suicide has no place, even in theory. Sigufim do; there were very big people who did it. It’s certainly not for us.
My point is not to advocate for sigufim, but that if self inflicted suffering is mechaper, suffering through negligence might be as well.
DY: newbee was.
And self-inflicted suffering isn’t Mechaper. It’s Mechayev. You don’t atone for Issurim by doing additional Issurim.
Source? No problem, ???? ????? ?????.
I know. 😉
newbee: My source is that there is no source. That’s kinda the whole point. We all know the source is fake.
Sam, never heard of ????? ??????
the gemorah says that HAKOL BIDEI SHOMAYIM CHUTZ MI YIRAS SHOMAYIM AND SONOS PACHUM, hence your cold could be negligent but anything else ie driving into a brick wall would be bidei shomayim..
Perhaps some yissurim are a kapara for that individual person. But I do not believe that every single time someone gets sick, has an accident,loses a job or all his money, or R”L dies, that it was because of davka something that specific person did. Maybe sometimes it is, but not always, as plenty of wonderful people who are YAREI ELOKIM have miserable lives. We believe that even cutting one’s finger is a siman from Shamayim. But perhaps it is because of someone ELSE’S misdeeds, that such actions bring about the presence of evil in the world, and some of us are collateral damage when onesh is being meted out.
newbee: By self-inflicted suffering I meant physical suffering, such as those who used to flagellate themselves. And the Gemara does call one who fasts a Chotei.
DY: What’s this Tshuvas HaMishkal?
It’s a concept found in Rishonim and even Geonim whereby one undergoes physical suffering equivalent to the hana’ah one received from a chet, in order to get a kaparah. I’m not recommending it l’maaseh; in fact, the Ramchal was against it. It is a real concept in Yiddishkeit, though.
DY: It’s a real concept for when it happens to someone, not doing it to themselves. Sure, you might dig that up in some Rishonim. But there are tons of completely rejected Shittos in Yiddishkeit that we assume have no validity. This is one of them.
Wrong. It is rejected l’maaseh, not conceptually. In fact, to some degree we practice it l’maaseh when we fast on a taanis, and even until recently, probably even today, there are people who fast more than just on taanis tzibur.
Something isn’t rejected from Yiddishkeit simply because you don’t practice it.
The reason we don’t practice it is because yotzo schoro b’hefseido, since it will hinder our davening, learning, and other avodah, not because we reject the idea.
we have a klal
hakol bidei shamayim chutz m’tzinim u’pachim (hot and cold)
something that is in your control is not bidei shamayim
DY: Fasting is something separate from physically hurting oneself. We completely reject self-damaging just as we completely reject those Rishonim who were corporealists. We minimize fasting because of your Sevara. That’s not why we don’t beat ourselves.
newbee: It’s a “Tshuvah” in the Besamim Rosh. It’s a Gemara at the beginning of Nazir. It calls unnecessary fasting a Chotei. Fasting to fix a bad dream is not unnecessary. It’s the only way to fix that bad dream. And then, as a Middah K’negged Middah Kaparah, you need to fast again.
newbee: Try 19a, I think.
Do you at least admit that the suicide thing is from a non-source?
This thread is over the top. Walking outside with no jacket causes sickness now? I personally wear a jacket to davening but not any other time, and I’m used to getting grief over that, but this is a whole new level.
Sam, we reject doing it, but we don’t reject the notion that pain or suffering doesn’t have the ability to be mechaper if it’s the person’s fault or even doing. Please bear in mind the context in which I brought the idea. I’m not saying we should be rolling in the snow or allowing ourselves to be bitten by bees; I’m simply saying that there could be a kaparah from suffering due to negligence, and I’m bringing a raya from the rishonim who did believe in those things. The reason we “reject” it is not because self inflicted suffering inherently can’t be mechaper.
i wear backless shoes all year and get snow in them all winter. sometimes my socks get wet and it makes me uncomfortable. I don’t think it’s a kappara, i chalk it up to stupidity on my part.
newbee: The Rishonim talk about why those few cases in the Gemara weren’t suicide. Well, sort of. There are a few Rishonim that comment though most don’t.
I don’t have a chance to look at the Shvus Yaakov here, but if I recall correctly he’s one of the ones who quotes the Besamim Rosh, no?
Suicide from fear of torture and pain and the like certainly has sources. Regarding suicide to be mechaper, did you see see the shevus yaakov 2:111? I also recall the story of the roman who jumped into the fire and committed suicide who “earned his olam haba in one moment”.
R. Ya’akov Emden was also of the opinion that suicide can atone for a sin for which one incurs the death penalty.
The Wolf
newbee: Interesting. I have to wonder if he’s inspired by the Besamim Rosh but he doesn’t seem to quote it. Either way, I’ll tell you Shkoiyach, you found a Da’as Yachid. Don’t pretend like it’s anything anywhere near normative to Pasken like this. Any Posek will tell you it’s suicide. If you want to pretend that extreme, Deios Yachid can be treated as Halachah, go learn with Popa’s friends at YCT.
There was someone in the gemara who gave himself arba misos beis din and the tanna he had been arguing with said that he beat him to gan eden.
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