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I don’t want to get involved in a debate now but I’ll say this anyway.
oomis, are you translating higher level as more Jewish? I don’t know that anyone is more Jewish than someone else, either someone is or isn’t. A higher level is definitely possible.
ZK, did you get that comment at the super belittling and condescending post store?
To Zaidy78: I don’t mean to be the grammar police, but there is a world of difference between compliment and complement. I’m sure you meant the latter.
I don’t know much about women complimenting a man, most can probably live without it. But I do know that if a man forgets to compliment a woman, watch out!!
All my threads are like this. You just don’t even realize it anymore.
they’re all funny but something about this one was just a cut above!
Popa,
based on the logic of your OP it would seem that baby boys until they are a few years old and capable of doing mitzvos are not jewish either. Why don’t they need geirus?
How many of the 613 can ANY of us actually keep, anyway? Wouldn’t that make all Jews not-Jewish?
News flash: Being Jewish does not depend on some external mitzvas like tefilin and tzitzit. Being jewish is based on having a jewish neshama by being born to a jewish mother or converting. When the yidden stood at Har Sinai and accepted the Torah, they became Jews, men and women alike. All their descendants are jewish provided they hadn’t married a non jewish woman.
In any case, this topic, like so many others in the coffee room is just looking for another way to demean women, as them being “less than”. That’s the real obsession here.
snjn: I wouldn’t call mitzvohs ‘external’. No, they’re what in fact makes us Jewish. Remember where we became Jews? Yeah, the place we said ???? ?????. Where HaShem said ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????. That was when HaShem “flashed us His news”.
Furthermore, a bit of reading Chazal indeed reveal to us that it’s as I wrote.
This topic was a ‘troll’ not to demean any gender. The OP could be a woman for all I know.
Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are men.
Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are not Jewish.
Therefore, men are not Jewish.
Simple logic!
actually, i’d like to point out the fact that women are actually on a higher level than men. Every day of the first 6 days Hashem created creatures that were on a higher level than the days before. On the 6th day after creating everything else Hashem created man. everything before that was created for the purpose of serving man.
…drumroll….for the important part….
women were created AFTER men –
obviously, man was put there first to serve women.
as mod. 42 says, “simple logic”
What I meant by “external” mitzvah was simply that the examples he gave were only of mitzvahs that are obvious for all to see when they are kept. Mitvas like Shabbos, kashrus, taharas hamishpacha, believing in Hashem, mitzvos bain adam lachavairo, brochos, etc. where women are equally michuyav. In fact, there are SEVEN mitzvos that women are not mechuyav in and the OP chose to harp on those. That gives a cursory glance at the obvious (external) mitzvos of men and says those are conditions of being a Jew.
“oomis, are you translating higher level as more Jewish? I don’t know that anyone is more Jewish than someone else, either someone is or isn’t. A higher level is definitely possible. “
Nope. I don’t. But based on the troll thinking around here, it seems some men apparently think that way about Jewish women. Just because someone does more mitzvos or certain mitzvos not incumbernt on someone else, does not make them “more” Jewish. But if the guys want to go that route, I have to point out that Jewish women do not need to do those mitzvos in order to be on that same high madreiga, because women are spiritually stronger to begin with. 🙂
Bina Yeseira: Does that mean that a pair of plyers is more choshuv than even a woman?
One could also say, according to the opinion that “Dyo partuzufin bara b’Adam” that man was indeed the final creation, and the woman was removed from him. Cleansing him, if you will.
And to snjn: Sometimes Popa’s trolling is very subtle and hard to detect. But this thread has it right there in the title!! (At least the recently modified title.)
snjn:
Once again, women are Mechuyav in ALL mitzvhos be it obvious or not, external or not. They’re exempt , as all know, from “mitzvos assay shehazman gerama”, time-dependent positive commandments, internal or external, obvious or not. That is THE SOLE difference.
I’ve been reading about this “hidden/private mitzvohs” thing here time and again, it’s just nonsense. (or someone’s erroneous ‘internal’ whim)
Because they have a bris.
The bris was while they were still goyim. How does that help them become a ger later on?
maybe women become Jewish when they get married (hence the name Kiddushin) (It could answer up how it’s not boel aramis)
Happy now?
ha! I posted on one of the threads that you started tonight that the real Popa threads are back! I hadn’t seen this at the time.
So like most of you I hope, my first thought on seeing this thread was, “That’s funny, I know they act like goyim and don’t follow the Torah and do the mitzvos like us, but of course they’re jewish.” However, recently, my wife who’s doing Daf HaSha’ah showed me a Tosfos in Qiddushin who quotes a gemara in Sotah that clearly holds they’re not. [The Tosfos itself was kinda interesting till I realized I might be a gayr] Those who follow the Rambam will of course throw this out with the baby but for the rest of us.
The Gemara (Sotah 37b [Of course I didn’t look it up] says that at Har Sinai the Bnei Yisrael Took on 603,550 covenants as guarantors for each other. Tosfos derives from this that they did not become guarantors for the Eirev Rav. The obvious next step is that they also did not become guarantors for the women. ???? ????? ??.
Popa
You are due for another one of these brilliant threads. 🙂
A Sheep: maybe the husbands and fathers were motzei their women
Since we’re reviving Popa classics…
And changing the titles back to the originals?
Jewish women are definitely Jewish, even if the definition of “Jewish woman” is a women who can give birth to a Jew.
Ashkenazic women, according to genetic research, have essentially gentile genetic markers, unlike Ashkenazic men, whose mitochondrial DNA has many similarities to that of Sephardic men, showing more Jewish continuity among Jewish men than women.
Those early Ashkenazic female converts didn’t have conversions accepted by the Rabbanut and the RCA, therefore, they must be goyim gamurim.
So one minute, boys become Jewish at 8 days old and girls are born Jewish? Or girls become Jewish at bas mitzvah?
WIY- I guess boys who cannot have a bris milah just aren’t jewish :).
I think rebdoniel is in agreement with pba here.
A Jewish woman is either a woman who is Jewish or a Jew who is female. Even if, as you claim, women have no real role in Judaism, they are still Jewish women. And about your long-ago car analogy: Anyone can make a car if they know how. It’s a learned skill. If a non-Jewish woman has proper training, can she give birth to a Jew?
I lead services in a dying shul; sadly, we sometimes get more women than men, and since we need a minyan, essentially, their presence is useless and constitutes little more than kiddush freeloading.
rebdoniel: Women can’t daven? Just because they can’t do what you need them to do doesn’t mean that they’re freeloading.
writersoul
Dont let him get away with it.
Theres a reason why a kiddush is meant to be just herring kichel and slivovitz. Keeps away freeloading women. If you serve salad at a kiddush and have pretty cakes as centerpieces youve dug your own grave.
Rd, since I don’t now you and have no benefit from you, should I say that your existence is useless and that you’re an olam hazeh freeloader?
I think you should rethink this one.
RD- would you prefer that these women NOT come to shul, daven b’tzibur and hear Krias hatorah?
The reason women can’t count in a minyan is that minyan is a tikun for the aveirah of the meraglim, and the meraglim were men. But women who participate in minyanim should not be viewed as “useless”, insignificant, or peripheral. Hashem hears the prayer of the tzibur as a whole.
Incidentally, rebdoniel, I don’t know how it is in your shul, but in my shul it is always a woman who sets up and cleans up the kiddush, regardless of who sponsors it.
We should index these classic threads, not just the altah bochur ones.
This thread should not be open. It is complete.
I love this topic
Once this thread is back, part of Popa’s original argument was
They don’t even have a bris, which is the sign of our covenant with Hashem!
However, as I recently pointed out in the Jokes thread
In honor of all the seminary threads:
Q. What’s the difference between B’nos Sarah and B’nos Chavah?
A. B’nos Chavah accepts non-Jews too. (According to Popa, they both accept non-Jews but ??????? ????? the Gemara in Avodah Zara 27a.)
The Gemara there says:
???? ???? ?????? ????
And as the Seridei Eish writes (2:67):
????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???
Although he then immediately writes:
??? ????? ?? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???”? ??”? ?? ?”? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????
Which might support Popa.
This is a great thread you started p_b_a.
But in case, after 3 years, you’re still waiting and hoping someone answers the question :
Yes, Popa, I am.
Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 4:49:
????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???’ ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??’ ???’ ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?”? ????????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???
Hey, Ladies, what’s with you? You used your ammunition over and over and Popa is still not impressed. I think all of you forgot one thing! Rosh Chodesh!! Wasn’t Rosh Chodesh given mainly to the women?
We are so careful not to do laundry or sewing, etc. and my sister even takes off from work every Rosh Chodesh!
Is Rosh Chodesh a Jewish holiday? Are Jewish women Jewish?
Believe:
If anything, Rosh Chodesh is a raya that women aren’t Jewish. The source for Rosh Chodesh being a women’s holiday is the Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer (perek 44) which says:
?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??’ ?? ??? ???’ ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???’ ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ?? ???? ???”? ????”? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???”? ???”? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??’ ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ??’ ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???????
Since the women refused to give their jewelry for the Golden Calf they were rewarded with Rosh Chodesh. Now let’s look at the pesukim which describe this event. Exodus Perek 32:
Verse 1 says:
???????? ?????
Verse 2 says:
???????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ?????????
Verse 3 says:
??????????????? ???? ?????
Verse 6 says:
????????? ?????
It is clear from this that the Torah refers to the Nation of Israel several times (one of which explicitly states “The ENTIRE Nation”) in which we know that it is only referring to the men. In fact the very same Pirkei D’Rebbi Eliezer just a few lines later says:
???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ??
Perforce, women are not Jewish.
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