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I don’t want to cause a flair-up, however I would like to point-out the following. While I am not an official “shadchan” I am heavily involved in shidduchim in many different ways. Without a doubt there is certainly shortage of boys on the market. However in many instances I find the girls being overly demanding/choosy in what they are “looking for”. Such as “I only want someone with a plan” why in the world would a 24 year old learning boy need any more of a “plan” other then to learn and trust in hashem?? And those who want working boys complain that he “isn’t serious enough about his learning”. Well yea that is why he isn’t in Yeshiva and he his working with a “plan” as you wanted. And for those of you living in Flatbush there is the new question “does he or doesn’t he wear a farragamo belt”. I’ll agree it’s a bit crazy to spend 360.00 dollars on a belt, but should that be a deciding factor in a shidduch?? (besides many of them are 10.00 dollar imitations). I recently heard a girl complain “I wouldn’t pay a penny to meet a shadchan”, really? why not?? does the shadchan owe you anything to spend hours and hours to try to find you someone–do you know of anyone that works for free?? (for the record i personally have never charged anyone or even accepted anything for any involvement in shidduchim). I certainly feel the pain of the girls in shidduchim, but at the same time they need to know they need to be more flexible and open minded and not make the crisis any more complicated then it already is. Hatzlocha!
I read in some seforim hakedoshim some pretty harsh words against shadchanim.
It’s not being choosy if a girl rejects a boy whom she genuinely does not want to marry.
As someone in shidduchim, I certainly agree with the fact that shadchanim need further incentives to continue redting shidduchim. For obvious reasons, I won’t mention my shadchan, but here’s a call out to all our amazing shadchanim!
What has gone too far though, is when shadchanim only redt to those who are more wealthy, more classy, than the average girl(or boy).
Flipping through a recent fundraising auction book, one of the prizes was shadchan gelt- as in 25k for my shadchan if she makes me a shidduch.
like come on, are we that low, that the shadchan gelt has to be a PRIZE in a chinese AUCTION??
this is a moot point as all shidduchim are made by the ultimate shadchan the ONE ABOVE and he does it before one of the parties is conceived.
One can ruin things with bechirah.
One can ruin things with bechirah.
Can one’s bechira only ruin it for themselves or can one ruin someone else’s bashert?
callitlikeit is.
You do realize that “silly reasons” is extrmely subjective.
for example I strongly disagree with your notion that wanting a plan for a boy who is learnin or wanting someone “Serious about learning” even if currently working are silly reasons.
I recently heard a girl complain “I wouldn’t pay a penny to meet a shadchan”, really? why not?? does the shadchan owe you anything to spend hours and hours to try to find you someone–do you know of anyone that works for free??
Do you know anyone who charges to meet with you and doesn’t promise to actually do any work for you after that?
Like for example recruiters? No.
It’s just hard because when shadchanim prefer one type of girl/boy over the other, monetary reasons or otherwise, even though yes we know that we have our bashert and shadchanim dont make a difference, in our perspective they do.
And I guess by ANY chinese auction, if you’re meant to have money, you will, with or without winning $36,000 or free tuition for a year…
Given how much girls are being asked to contribute in a marriage above the ksuba described duties of course they don’t want just anyone
maybe i’m biased, but GIRLS WANT TO GET MARRIED!!
offbeat2, I’m not sure why it took you all the way until that entry to deem the chinese auction ridiculous. It’s a ridiculous chinese auction for a ridiculous organization and you shouldn’t be bringing an example from them.
I personally never heard of a shadchan charging to meet you. And if they do, it makes sense not to go meet them. The shadchan indeed owes it to no one to meet with them but that doesn’t mean that every girl necessarily has to meet every shadchan. And if they decide which to meet based on whether or not they charge, that seems like a pretty sensible way of doing things.
I agree with ubiquitin.
As for the farragamo belt, you’re right that everyone is entitled to a few mishugasen and it shouldn’t be the deciding factor in any shiduch, but the question isn’t out of place when trying to get a feel of the boy.
And you meant “flare-up.” “Flair-up” would be those shadchanim who only deal with the wealthy, and there’s no reason to be concerned your post would encourage that.
@scareddriverdelight hey, hey! i still like the organization! they do great things- my brother went to TheZone… Just wondering about their prize. And i do want to win it anyway, as crazy as it is. sort of feeding the monster, but they have awesome prizes aside from that one.
Therapy anyone? That’s one prize i think they nailed-very apropos in this day and age:)
There is no reason for you to put blame on the girls.There is absolutely nothing wrong with a girl saying she wants someone with a plan or saying she wants a more serious learner..the same way a boy can say what hes looking so can a girl.Girls are clearly the disadvantaged ones in the shidduch system and need to be open minded as it is..dont make it any worse. And I do agree with you that there is nothing wrong with a shadchan charging to meet with someone. However, the shadchan should actually show what work is being done for her..so she doesn’t just think she payed for no reason when she doesn’t hear back
@popa_bar_abba: You may not realize but there is in fact a lot of work being done behind the scenes.
Maybe. But it’s outrageous to charge girls to meet with you without you promising to do anything.
Had it really now become normative or common for shadchanim to charge girls before they make a shidduch?
Maybe shadchanim should show their logs! The singles will appreciate it more, and will therefore give the shadchanim the incentives they deserve.
#solvethecrisis
You really want to pain the girls and have the shadchan show the logs of just how many boys are not interested in them? It’s best for the girl’s sake for the work to stay behind the scenes, and to be contacted when there’s a yes.
Are they that fragile?
Maybe they don’t have to show the actual phone/ email information..but just in general, they could say their working on ideas..mention some names..something!at least they know that shadchanim are actually working on them
Do you think girls don’t know if boys reject them?? If the shadchanim are involved in getting them married, hopefully they are trying! And if it didn’t lead to a date, obviously they’re being rejected. By seeing actual work of the shadchanim, they’ll only be comforted.
Hopefully.
There are plenty of girls out there who will reject a boy after a 2 hour meeting in a lounge. On their respective pieces of paper everything appears aligned. Who can make a life decision like that in 2 hours? Don’t they realize that none of us are at our best on a first meeting? It takes time to warm up to another. There’s a famous story in the yeshivas about one particular seminary that tells the girls that they shouldn’t give anyone a chance, if he isn’t immediately what they think they’re looking for, then goodbye Charlie.
“1) from a frum perspective and having bitochon there is no reason a young 22 year old boy sitting and learning needs a “plan”. Look at the thousand of boys who have gotten married without a “plan” and are b’h doing great even financially. Apparently their “plan” is to trust in Hashem, which in my humble opinion is a great plan!”
This is not a plan. This is called sitting on your tuchas and doing nothing except make believe you are frum, like a pig who sticks out its split hooves.
Hishtadlus is not saying I believe hashem will make it rain money from heaven.
“You really want to pain the girls and have the shadchan show the logs of just how many boys are not interested in them?”
I wonder if it really shows just how few ideas this shadchan actually had for this girl.
Lets flip it around. Give the girls the names of the guys first.
“Do you think girls don’t know if boys reject them??”
Of course they do. One of the worst things plaguing shidduchim today is guys talking with their friends about girls they have met and girls talking with their friends about boys who they met. Guys get labeled, girls get labeled, and nobody wants to be the one to buck the trend, so those names get tossed aside.
A Woman Outside Brooklyn-
As a girl in shidduchim, I have to disagree with you. There are times where I get into the car and after 5 minutes, I can tell that there is no connection whatsoever. I think that thousands of girls out there will agree with me. I have mentors/teachers whom I speak to when I date, and I have never been told that I was unjustified in saying no after the first date.
Sometimes, everything looks good on paper, but two people just don’t click- and it could be immediately evident.
Also, I’m sure that you’re hearing about that particular seminary (without knowing which one you’re referring to) from secondhand information, and it is probably grossly exaggerated. The seminary probably tells the girls not to date longer than necessary- which I don’t think is great advice, but it’s not as bad as what you wrote.
technical20: What is not great about advising girls not to date longer than necessary?
In That Particular Seminary, the girls are presented with the concept of “Mr. Zee” who seems to combine many different characteristics that are “wrong”.
Technical20, haven’t you ever met someone, be it a date or a girl you met for the first time, and at first it doesn’t seem like you have anything to talk about until one of you hits on something that just rings a bell? I have. Most people have. I’m not talking about getting into a car, and it’s a mess, and the boy is gruff or sloppy. I’m talking about nice, presentable Yeshiva guys with warm personalities. Obviously, there are those with whom we may never form a connection, but please, give it a chance!
techinlca20
“I think that thousands of girls out there will agree with me.”
There is no question that is true.
However there are thousands (hundreds?) of others who felt no connection after 5 minutes, but gave it another shot anyway and are now happily married…
And there are many that felt no connection whatsoever but there was no real reason to say no so they kept going and now they are sadly divorced.
Saying no after 2 hours makes more sense than what happens when one meets a shadchan: The shadchan talks to him/her for 10 minutes, usually in a line of other people, and after those 10 minutes think that they know everything about said person.
Hahsemisreading
That is without doubt true, but Im not sure who in this thread said otherwise
ubiquitin: did I say that someone said otherwise?
Joseph- I meant that girls do sometimes take things that their seminaries tell them VERY literally, and they are likely to say no more quickly than they probably should have because of it. That’s why I said that this is more likely to be what the seminary told their girls, rather than actually telling them to say no if he’s not exactly what you’re looking for.
By the same token, when I have said no after a date, it has almost always been mutual (even-or maybe especially-a first date). I’m not saying that I won’t give it a chance; I have had boys where I felt no particular connection, but went out a 2nd time if we were able to find things to talk about on the date. I’ve also had an experience where the 1st date wasn’t anything special, but I had a much better 2nd and 3rd date. This is only if there is something to talk about, though.
All I’m saying is that there is such a thing as knowing after one date that the boy is not for you.
“I meant that girls do sometimes take things that their seminaries tell them VERY literally, and they are likely to say no more quickly than they probably should have because of it.”
Another reason to keep your daughter in a seminary close to home and not halfway around the world. You get to discuss with her daily what lessons she learned etc. and to cure her of any misguided ideas.
Hashemisreading
nope. not sure what it added
apushatayid- who says that most 18- or 19-year-old girls will listen to what their parents tell them about what their seminary says?
Also, which parents of 18- or 19-year-old girls ask them what they learned in school every day? Seems to me that that’s a bit of micromanagement…
I think that seminary girls need to be allowed to be seminary girls, and post-seminary girls need to be allowed to be post-seminary girls. They will often go way too far in believing every word their seminary teachers say. That’s why I waited a full year after seminary before I started shidduchim; I needed to come back to earth and balance what my teachers told me with who I am, and figure out what is healthy and balanced for me- independent of what anyone else wanted or expected me to be.
Then girls should go to seminary when they’re 2 so it doesn’t make them put their lives on hold.
Any men who are on YWN should probably abstain from commenting on seminary in any way, shape, or form, since they don’t understand its purpose and never will.
If girls would get married very shortly after completing 12th grade in beis yaakov, most of the shiddduch crisis would be resolved.
I think seminary is an awesome experience.
I think the year after seminary is an experience too. Not as awesome, but more of an experience.
whats wrong, and why shouldn’t the boy have a plan?
Most boys expect too much from the girls side to support,
coheni- correct. Then again, some girls specifically want a boy without a plan, and rely on their parents and/or their own earning capacity.
I’m sure the name “Mr. Z” will ring a few bells with girls who went to a particular seminary.
Mind you, I’m not criticizing seminary. It’s a wonderful experience and girls really grow up both emotionally and spiritually in ways many of them didn’t in HS. Yes, the air of EY has kedusha.
My favorite example of giving a fellow another chance if you were merely so/so after date #1 (as opposed to outright turned off) is my own experience. Date #1 wasn’t bad, it wasn’t good – I wouldn’t have cared a lot if a second date wasn’t arranged. Date #2 and onwards were amazing and we lived happily ever after.
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