Are students allowed to be thrown out of school? Mesivta/ high school

My opinion is that it is allowed.

Retzicha.

Question is extremely complex. To throw out as a punishment is certainly inexcusable. The job of the yeshiva is to educate, not punish. There is a very, very small role for punishment in yeshiva, and only if it is part of the education. The punishment that is intended to control, take revenge, or express the anger/rage of the rebbe or menahel is anti-Torah, anti-chinuch, and ossur. For those who want to bicker with me, please first review several of the many seforim on chinuch. I will note those from Rav Wolbe, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Nesivas Sholom, Chasam Sofer, Rav Aharon Friedman, and others. Then you may cite chapter and verse in any challenge to my statements.

Retzicha

Yes, leaving a bad influence in the yeshiva might be retzicha klapei some of the other boys.

It’s dinei nefashos, but it goes both ways.

I don’t envy the ones who have to make these decisions.

Legally they are allowed, the question is should they be allowed

Just my personal take , it should not be allowed unless the offender can do serious PHYSICAL harm to the other bochrim like violence or drugs. Most of the offenses bochrim are thrown out for are really minor and the yeshiva is wrong

Many schools use a different tactic of throwing out a kid . They wait til the year is up and then tell the parents that the kid isnt for thier school.

Not every talmid is a match for the school. But there is a reason for it. Individual differences between kids exist (duh!). But that is the role of the school, to fulfill חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. By our yeshivos creating schools that are modeled after the public school system, with large classrooms and a curriculum, we have encountered huge problems. In the days of a מלמד having no more than 6-8 kids, where individual attention was the norm, this was possible. And none other than שלמה המלך told us that this was the wisest way to be mechanech. Today’s system all but renders that impossible, and pushes kids into the mold of the yeshiva. Wise? NO! Convenient? Yes. Attending to the unique needs of the talmid is now the exception. There are bochurim who do far better with learning בקיאות, others עיון, and others in niches like הלכה, אגדה, etc. Being able to say that one learned under the tutelage of a specific Rosh Yeshiva is no longer common, being replaced by names of cities or yeshivos. Mobility has assumed the role that רבי מובהק once occupied.

Yeshivos are apt to describe their activity as עוסקים בצרכי ציבור. Sadly, that is hardly true anymore. Each is in the game of competing for the best talmidim, the ones that need the least guidance or direction. So the matching issue becomes very serious. If my yeshiva is out to produce those that will finish Shas while still under my roof, I will push for the hasmodoh that obliterates any trace of physical fitness activity, and will also pressure the בקיאות piece over עיון. Someone inclined to learn differently will be an unwelcome guest. Should a bochur like this be thrown out because of this mismatch? Should we question whether we should be fashioning a yeshiva on a single derech? Should we be pressing a square peg into a round hole?

What about behavioral issues? Should yeshivos have the authority to sentence a kid to live in the street, or should they work with him to shape up? Do they even know how to help?

The issue is complex. To trash the entire existing yeshiva system in order to create a better or more fair one is not reality. But I would hope that our yeshiva leaders re-examine their mandate.

I think anyone who thinks there is actually an answer to this shouldn’t be trusted.

If you’re discussing an individual case, okay.

But as a matter of principle, what’s wrong with an opinion about whether there are or aren’t any situations in which it’s warranted?

DY:

I suppose that who possess an IQ on the positive side of 0 understand that each kid facing expulsion by a yeshiva is an individual case to be judged on its own merits. What makes this worth discussion is that it is commonplace for yeshivos to throw kids out impulsively. Whereas there must be those who have faculty meetings where they discuss the matter, there are certainly many that do not. Sorry, no statistics. I have heard many, many cases where a kid is simply ejected, for him and his parents to fend for themselves. In certain cases, these yeshivos were corrupt enough to call other possible yeshivos where the expelled talmid might go and warn them to not accept him. Not as a rule, but not a rare exception either.

The pikuach nefesh factor seems to be ignored, and the role the yeshiva should be taking to work with the talmid (albeit a challenging one) is also bypassed. The Gedolim of yesteryear were highly opposed to such practice, though using this as an argument to stop an expulsion has not worked.

I agree that there are yeshivos that cannot work for certain talmidim, and they need to go elsewhere. An earlier comment noted that “throwing out” must be accompanied by finding an alternative placement. I agree, but optimism here is hard to find.

What makes this worth discussion is that it is commonplace for yeshivos to throw kids out impulsively.

How do you know that it’s impulsively? Unless you’re in chinuch, which would be a major shocker considering how you constantly bash mechanchim.

Neville, by the time they get to Mesivta, they should already be mostly trained.

Neville Chaim Berlin your response to the punishment peace , is just untrue and I see why you wouldn’t know the difference from your name 🙂

Bashing mechanchim? Expecting mechanchim and schools to do right by the klal isnt bashing. Unless you live somewhere where he is speaking to the norm, in which case i feel sad for your options.

One does not have to be out of chinuch to have those opinions, and one certsinly does not need to be in chinuch to know what’s going on. Any friend, rav, therapist, neighbor, fellow jew can speak to hanhala about a boy they care about, or a concern they are having with a teacher, and hear exactly what’s going on. If you are oseik in those receiving chinuch, you are as well informed as you choose to be.

Milhouse:

Before there was a chinuch system as we know it today, with yeshivos, etc., parents hired a melamed to learn with their child. These מלמדי דרדקי were traditionally paid little. It was common that a melamed had 1-2 children, but the large groups tended to be 6-8. There was no organization, no menahel, no building, no transportation. This is described in many books, as well as by many who grew up in that era.

DY:

I am not a constant basher. The issue of “throwing out” from mesivta is highly controversial, and something that should never be done lightly. I have direct contact with way too many cases that were handled badly, and not a small percentage of the expulsions from quite a few mainstream litvishe and chassidishe yeshivos. The numbers do not matter, as the kid being expelled is a 100% victim, while the one not is 0%. And I do have quite a bit of experience here, being involved much closer to the inside than I am willing to describe in a public forum. I can sing praises as well, and when the discussion focuses on the strong points, I acknowledge them with proper respect.

NCB:

You’re being ridiculous. No, you don’t discipline a kid that’s bullying or a mechutzaf with teaching math or gemora. But a trained mechanech knows better than to make discipline the main tool of his job. The kid misbehaving is acting out, and needs to be guided, not punished. The acting out is a cry for help, being expressed immaturely. The kid needs guidance, help, and to be embraced by Torah value. Punishment never taught. It controlled. There is a small role for that. But making this a major tool for a yeshiva is a dereliction of duty. Your citing the needs of the individual over the majority sounds really nice, but is incorrect. The Chazon Ish ZT”L is quoted as having stated this (He passed away in 1953): Until now (post Holocaust with the major destruction to yeshivos and talmidei chachomim) the goal of yeshivos was to educate the tzibbur. It is now the responsibility to educate the yochid. I do not disagree that a talmid might need to be placed elsewhere. But simple relocation without attending to the needs of the talmid is irresponsible. Just punishing is most often destructive, not educational. There are ways to punish. I refer you to the sefer זריעה ובנין בחינוך from Rav Wolbe ZT”L. It is a section of the עלי שור – חלק ב. I am not fabricating anything here.

Bachur3:

Sorry, my use of screen name is for anonymity. I may not be the greatest genius here, but my experience is extensive, as is my current involvement with the subject matter. I will not identify further.

Syag:

Thanks for the support.

Bachur3:

I bet there are several. I still shudder for all those who fail our children, considering their work holy. Of course, chinuch is as holy a task as there can be. But I repeatedly stress the need to look to our greatest for direction. Visit your seforim stores, and peruse the wealth of material now published on the subject, and all from purely Torah sources. These texts are not mandatory study for those entering the field, and way too many mechanchim are unaware of their existence. I recall confronting my children’s menahel about this, specifying a few names of seforim. He actually did know a few. However, he was brutally honest when admitting he never opened them, nor had he ever demanded that any of his faculty learn them. Seems that achieving the authority position of menahel is enough to qualify one as an expert. I say not. I still revert to the timely and wise advice from our greatest. Many make specific discussion about the matter of expelling talmidim. There is the clear message from the Chazon Ish that this is a matter of Pikuach Nefesh and requires a beis din of 23. That quote is found in many places, including the biography Maaseh Ish. In reality, it is even rare for a Rov who is independent to the yeshiva to be consulted, let alone a beis din of any number.

Every yeshiva has its standards. When a bochur crosses the line, the yeshiva must weigh its options. When there are no other options left, and an alternate yeshiva is found, the yeshiva has a right to expel. Why is that complicated?

To be a bit contrarian, here’s a Teshuva from Rabbi Baumel to Reb Shraga Feivel Mendelovitch, saying that you can evict a student if he’s annoying the teacher. Even if it’s going to cause Bittul Torah to the student.

There is a RMA in YD 334 who says You can put someone in cherem and you don’t have to worry about the consequences. I think the Taz argues/

Chabadshluchah:

I am not one to disagree with the Rebbe ZT”L. His statement is not much different from what was proclaimed many times by Gedolei Yisroel. Many years ago, there was a statement from the Moetzes Gedolei Yisroel of the Agudah that expelling a student required a beis din that is independent of the yeshiva/school to rule on each case. That statement was DOA. Firstly, there has yet to be known beis din that will accept a case involving a yeshiva. Secondly, it was never implemented. Not only do the many askanim working with OTD and at-risk kids know of no such case among the many of their clientele who have all been ousted from yeshivos, but have never encountered a case where a talmid’s expulsion was brought before a Rov/Posek for approval. Here’s the problem. It is correct that some expulsions are indicated. The trouble is that the yeshiva is one of the baalei din in the matter, and cannot be considered objective. For that reason, an independent outsider who is capable of objectivity should be consulted. So far, no such consultation is known about. I suggest that there may actually be such situations that involved an objective third party, but this should be a 100% rule, not a rare exception.

The statement from the Moetzes stated that a child who was a “rodeif” can be ousted, with beis din approval. Aside from the phantom beis din, the determination of “rodeif” is far from simple. A kid that is spreading schmutz among his peers may well be a rodeif. One that sells drugs might be one, too. The drug user and the one that has unfiltered internet at home might not be one. Again, there still needs to be a process to determine risk. And yeshivos overestimate risk quite often. I have consulted to some situations that were dramatic, and speak volumes of the failure of the system.

The Rebbe ZT”L shared brilliance. But how do we know when to apply it appropriately?