Are sfardim from the 10 shvatim

First, even if the official botei din will not accept gerim, there will surely be private botei din that will, just as there were in the times of Dovid and Shlomo. But in the case of people who were already frum, and are therefore obviously committed to keeping mitzvos, why would the official botei din not accept them? It’s obvious that they will.

Look how many Jews there were in past historical periods that we have records of, either from Tanach, Chazal or other sources. Based on any natural growth rate from those past numbers, today there should at least be hundreds of millions of Jews. Yet we only count a few million today (even with the unreligious.)

a maggid shiur of mine once told me that sefardim have a mesora they come from shevet yehuda.

there is a little known vort from the chiddushei harim (or sfas emes – i don’t recall), who says a similar idea. it’s brought in siach sarfei kodesh, and there he says ashkenazim come from shevet binyamin and sefardim come from shevet yehuda.

lmaiseh there has been so much intermarrying between sefardim and ashkenazim throughout the doros, that it’s impossible nowadays to say for a fact that a particular person comes from a particular shevet, just because they’re sefardi or ashkenazi.

NC, I don’t understand how you could even consider that this gemara might be agadeta. It looks exactly like any other piece of gemara that discusses a practical halachic question. Would it even occur to you to suggest that the sugya of yiush shelo mida’as might be agadeta?!

Re Ethiopians, the metzius is that there’s no evidence or reason to suppose they have any Jewish origin at all. Their Bible was identical to the first half of their Xian neighbors’ Bible, and not to any Jewish Tanach. They have no traditions that are Jewish rather than Xian. They have no genetic markers indicating Jewish ancestry. And their own origin story is completely consistent with the beliefs of their Xian neighbors, and completely inconsistent with Jewish tradition. It seems obvious that their ancestors were normal Xians who one day decided that the first half of their Bible made sense and the second half didn’t. Rather like that group in Uganda who have now been “converted” by the Conservatives.

By way of contrast, the Bene Israel of Bombay had very little in the way of Jewish tradition left, but the tiny bits they had were inconsistent with anything around them, and their origin story is plausible and consistent with our traditions. In addition they did not intermarry with their neighbors, or accept converts, and since they did not allow divorcees to remarry they’re not bechezkas mamzerim.

“Ethiopians, the metzius is that there’s no evidence or reason to suppose they have any Jewish origin at all.”
We don’t posken by genotyping. All the reasons you list are why they need geirus. The fact that they claim to be Jewish and have been for as many generations as they can recall is what makes it a safek.

I’m not saying anything you’re saying is wrong. But, I don’t think any posek would tell you to take it out to its extreme and sell chometz to an Ethiopian Jew (pre-geirus). Personally, I believe they were Christians who re-invented Judaism based on the “Old Testament” as well, but we’re still choshesh for the slight possibility that this isn’t the case. The genetics brings nothing to the table, halachically-speaking.

” Ethiopians are any more or less Jewish than Ashkenazim”

Rabbi SZ Auerbach Dismissed that assertion Out of hand
for that matter most leading Authorities agreed

Zeta Yisroel? You mean Zera Yisroel?

Are you referring to Ethiopians or Ashkenazim? Because I’m pretty sure that 99% of what people on the internet claim HaRav Ovadia Yosef said about Ashkenazim was never said at all.

How did he figure they’re Zera Yisrael? You have the source?

They had no rabbinic sforim and their Bible included certain books found in the Christian Bible. To say that they’re vadai Jews would be a really big chiddush. Pulling the race card does not help an argument in halachah.

Lol. I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously.

Just in hopes that this actually upsets you: I’m just going to go ahead and assume Rav Ovadia never actually said any of the things you’re claiming here.

Really? You’re kidding me. But I do believe that with all the pogroms against Ashkenazie Jews , there is a theory that their fathers are Ukrainians, hence Uman.

NC, I already told you the gemara is in the middle of Yevamos, and it’s very easily found by searching for “chalach” and “chavor”. If you can’t be bothered finding it that’s your privilege, but you’re not entitled to an opinion on it without first looking at it.

Allan, with a majority of Sephardim having converted to Christianity between the 1300s and 1500s, and later a number of the Marranos having returned, are you not concerned about Christian parentage of Sephardim.

Really? You’re kidding me. But I do believe that with all the pogroms against Ashkenazie Jews , there is a theory that their fathers are Ukrainians, hence Uman.

1. There is no such “theory”. Unfounded speculation by random nutcases does not constitute a theory.

2. What the *$#$% does Uman have to do with it?

3. Even if it were true, so what? How could it be even remotely relevant?

the”sfardim” are really descendants of those who did not return from Bavel and spread across asia and north africa along the trade routes to the far east their religious authority was the yeshivot of Bavel the Ashkenazim left Eretz Yisrael to southern Europe due to Roman persecution and later troubles and spread northward into europe along the trade routes into germany and france

The Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews, so you have no heter for your selling chometz to them stance.

I admit, I can’t back up what I’m saying any more than YO could when he referenced Rov Ovadia Yosef. <strong>(Modified)</strong>

Millhouse: if you did 23 and Me or some such thing and it didn’t come back Jewish, you would go ahead and eat pork? I don’t care how much sense it makes in your head, we don’t posken by genetic testing.

You guys seem to be assuming that because the stance is more PC, it must be more meikel. The psak that they’re safek Jews is a chashash, not a kulah. Presumably they cannot marry kohanim or mamzerim after geirus. Even if the odds of them being Jewish is 1 in a hundred, it’s worth taking the precaution.

The daf Millhouse seems to be talking about is 16b in Yevamos. It is halachah not aggadeta; he’s right. It’s talking about whether or not a marriage between a goyish man and a Jewish woman might be a valid kiddushin because of the possibility that the man is from the 10 lost tribes. It gets shot down essentially because the 10 tribes are separated and therefore it follows mechtzah al mechtzah: rov goyim are not from the 10 tribes therefore we assume each individual goy is a goy gamor (if I’m understanding correctly; I just skimmed).

I have to agree with Millhouse that, based on this, it seems like anyone who tries to claim a group is one of the lost tribes would be arguing on this gemara. It’s a good question, then, why chushuve people have brought up the concept over the years. Is there a gemara somewhere else that shlugs this up?

MH please tell us your source telling us there a source we can search isn’t a source please name the Gemara or I will assume you made it up

“Neville, where did you ever hear that the Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews?”
When did you hear they don’t? They’re machmir in both directions, as I described. It clearly doesn’t make them any more meikel in their expectations for the geirus process.

“MH please tell us your source telling us there a source we can search isn’t a source please name the Gemara or I will assume you made it up”
I found it. See above.

RGP: “What does it matter what the Eidah thinks? How is that relevant?”
It shows that they aren’t vadai goyim according to any major de’os. You already established HaRav Ovadia Yosef’s opinion, which MH apparently doesn’t hold by. He seems to be assuming there are poskim out there who take his approach, but I do not know of any, nor has he brought any.