Are sfardim from the 10 shvatim

Since when are there only 10 shevatim?

The split between Sefardim and Ashkenazim occured well after the the 10 shvatim went missing.

Not sure who or what that is. I heard from a big Talmid Chochom and Banshak.

@Yabia Omer, I never heard that. Interesting.
Many Sfardim can trace themselves back directly to David Hamelech.

Some claim Weiss is a T.C.

“For all of the differences, it still amazes me how much we are the same”
Especially in this case, because they’re both Ashkenazim.

“and believe me Ashkenazim aren’t jealous of sfardim it actually seems like the opposite based on your threads”
YO is Ashkenaz though. He seems jealous of Sphardim to me.

I am an Ashkenaz who is jealous of Sfardim because their food tastes better!

I honestly think this is a seriously stupid thread, but here’s my thoughts; both sides have what to be jealous of each other if they wanted to be. Ashkenazim have been around in the tri-state area longer than sefardim and have established a much better educational system (still needs lots of help, but Darchei in far Rockaway is a heck of an institution) along with other great things. While Ashkenazim can be jealous of sefardim for the fact that they are a much closer knit community which basically acts like a large family, they are typically more chilled when it comes to stupid societal rules (i.e. only wearing white shirts, judging you on your yiddishkeit if you live too lavishly, etc.), And of course Deal in the summer is something to be jealous of lol. But what’s the point in being jealous? I find it better to just try and copy your peers if you see they did something and found success in it. End rant.

Chevra, Sefardim are called Sefardim because they remained in the mediteranean basin after the Spanish Inquisition and subsequent expulsion (sefard is spain). Some moved northward, joining the communities of France/Germany and became known as Ashkenazim.

The 10 shevatim split off over a thousand years earlier.

This thread is rediculous.

” Ashkenazim have been around in the tri-state area longer”
Actually no. That’s one point where I actually will bring down a proof from that shul we discussed on the other thread. The Sphardim were in NY first, back when it was New Amsterdam. Admittedly, according to wikipedia (not saying it’s for sure accurate), it was only about 200 Sphardim who would later be greeted by thousands and eventually millions of Ashkenazi immigrants.

“they are typically more chilled when it comes to stupid societal rules”
Have you considered that they just have different societal rules? From my understanding, Sphardi households, even the secular ones, are much more traditionalist than Ashkenazim in terms of the role of the woman and such. A lot of the points you bring are hashkafic, not minhagic. Yeshivish Sphardim are just as likely to be cooky about shirt color as anyone else.

MILHOUSE: Where are your sources? Especially #3??

Coffee Addict, what pasuk?

Joseph, Sambatyon is a legend, and the tribes behind it are even more of a legend. At least Sambatyon is mentioned in the gemara. The idea that there are tribes behind it seems to come from the medieval fraud “Eldad Hadani”.

More Chessed, it’s an explicit gemara in Yevamos.

It is Time, there is no difference in opinion in the original sources. As I said, the gemara is hilchesa, not agadeta, so it is binding, and there is no contrary opinion expressed. The stories people have told each other through the ages are irrelevant when there’s an explicit hilchesa in the gemara against it.

Coffee Addict, what has that pasuk got to do with anything? How do you see in it any support for the myth of the “ten tribes” waiting out there somewhere for Moshiach to return them?

The term “the ten tribes” refers to the legend that the exiled tribes were lost, and will one day return. When someone uses the term that is what they mean. And the gemara says it’s a myth.

The most obvious meaning of the posuk is that there will be no more tribal rivalry. Right now that has been fulfilled; our tribes (whether we have two or twelve) no longer have separate identities, so there can be no rivalry between them.

However it’s also obvious that every Jew is descended in the direct male line either from one of the tribes, or from a ger. When Eliyohu comes he may well inform each of us of our yichus and we will know who we are. For those of us who are descended in the male line from the original Bnei Yisroel, he may also inform us exactly where our property is in Eretz Yisroel, that we inherited from our ancestors. So assuming that there remain at least some descendants of Efrayim, we may re-form the tribes. In that case, the posuk is promising us that the re-formed tribes will remain friends.

Either way, the idea that Sefardim (or any community, such as Ethiopians) come from these “lost tribes” is not feasible.

Actually I heard from a Choshuv Rav that Sefardim are from Yehuda and A are from Epharim

The Chida says that Sephardim are from Yehuda, And Ashkanazim are from Binyamin. Hashem put Binyamins children in Europe because their ancestor never bowed in from of Esav (parashat Vayishlah). People of Binyamin are tougher people. They could withstand bnai Esav.

I have a Persian friend who can trace himself to Shevet Shimon. He claims many Yazdis can do the same (trace themselves to a shevet not from Yehuda. He also says many Bucharians can do the same.
The pasuk clearly says the Aseres Hashvatim were exiled to Madai, which is Iran. It makes sense that when the Yiddin came to Madai during the Megillah, they reintegrated.

joseph: you are confusing yazidi people with the city in iran called yazd. two different things.

“And most Ashkenazim shtam from Rashi.”

Any proof to that? Some yes, but most?

Joseph, there is no evidence or any reason to believe that the Ethiopians known as “Beta Israel” have any Jewish ancestry at all. Those who have become gerim in the last 40 years are of course Jews; the rest are not.

It is completely obvious and not even slightly controversial that if someone discovers that his maternal line does not trace back to a Jewish woman then he is not Jewish, and if he wishes to be he must become a ger. However, what makes you think there are a significant number of such people? How exactly would “female non-Jews erroneously got mistaken for Jews”?

It is also completely obvious and uncontroversial that there are many Jews in the world who have no idea that they are Jews, because their Jewish ancestor in the maternal line married out many generations ago, and that these people are 100% Jews, just like any of us. There were many many gerim in Roman times, most of whom eventually became Xians. Their female-line descendants are Jews. More recently, until 500 years ago the south of Italy was full of Jews; then Spain conquered it and brought in the inquisition, and suddenly there were no Jews. Many of the Jews fled, but most probably remained and became Xians. Also in Spain itself, the majority of Jews remained and became Xians. All of their female-line descendants are Jews. There is nobody who disputes this.

When Eliyohu informs them of their yichus they will have to start keeping mitzvos, and will have to bring chato’os for the sins they did beshogeg. The gemoro says that a Jewish child who grew up not knowing that he is obligated to keep Shabbos must bring one chatos for all the Shabbosos that he violated, because they were all included in the same “he’elem”.

we know that Rashi and the Baalei Tosfos shtam ben acher ben from Dovid HaMeclech, hence Shevet Yehuda.

No, we don’t know that at all. We don’t even know that Rashi was descended from him at all (though it seems very likely), but we certainly don’t know that he was ben achar ben. (And of course nobody is ben achar ben from Rashi.)

We have the complete yichus brief from Dovid HaMelech through Rashi.

No, we don’t. No such document exists, and there is no reason to suppose one ever existed.

YRST, I doubt your friend can actually trace himself to Shevet Shim’on. More likely he simply has a family tradition that they are from that shevet. Is that tradition authentic? Who can possibly know? It is certainly possible. And since one of the major opinions in the gemara is that the ten tribes’ exile only lasted a short time, after which they returned to Eretz Yisrael and then shortly thereafter went into Galus Bavel, there’s no reason to be surprised if a group of Jews from Shevet Shim’on settled in a certain place and their descendants still have a tradition about it. Of course this is not proof, and even it it’s true, over the course of 2500 years many other Jews would have moved to the same place and assimilated into their community, so someone whose family is from there now is not necessarily descended from the original settlers.

Milhouse,

“However, what makes you think there are a significant number of such people? How exactly would “female non-Jews erroneously got mistaken for Jews”?”

Of course there aren’t a significant number. But over 2,000+ years there are going to be some. Another example might be a Jewish family adopted and never properly converted yet she thought she’s Jewish. Or a Jewish baby switched at birth with a gentile baby. (One such scenario was discovered 100 years later, recently.) And had children and grandchildren etc. all thinking they’re Jewish and intermarrying real Jews.

What will happen to these Shomer Torah uMitzvos pseudo-Jews when Moshiach comes and all those generations now realize they’re goyim (who might have had children with actual Jews)?

Milhouse: Become Jewish after Moshiach arrives will be possible? If so every goy will suddenly sign up to Judaism after seeing the nisim from Moshiach.