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Point is, your assertion that there’s some type of correlation between kollel and marriage issues is an invention of your own with no basis in reality.
There is strong correlation. The question is whether it is the pirate to global warming kind (as touted by the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or something more real, to which I agree that all I have is speculation.
Interesting how here, flatbusher does expect learners to be on a higher level:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/boycotting-borsalino#post-554817
You wrote here, “I get the impression that there are people out there who seem to suggest that somehow people who are in kollel are better than Jews than the rest of us frum people.”
Based on that post, you would seem to be one of those people.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
The whole premise of thread is flawed. Work on your own avodas hashem and yiras shamayim.
What was the premise?
Obviously, every person should do what best enables their productivity and fulfills their respective responsibilities. Obviously, Kollel is not responsible for most people as it violates the kesubah and the average women with three kids isn’t mochel her fully justified and codified rights. Obviously, some people (usually men) disagree. Is it laziness for many? I believe that the people making the decision to remain in Kollel don’t believe they are being lazy. I also believe that laziness isn’t defined by belief.
Someone learning full time, a real, honest, earnest full time learner, who uses his time to the fullest is no questioningly better than one who doesn’t. No everyone is cut out for it, not everyone can or is supposed to, but then again not everyone’s job is to be the best Jew. One is supposed to do Ratzon HaShem, what HaShem wants him to do, regardless of another one’s standing. But Torah study is the ultimate tafkid of a Jew. ????? ???? ???? ????.
I’m not sure why you’re categorizing people into kollel and non kollel. The question makes no sense. People who treat their family better and kind to others are better than those who aren’t. People who respect their parents are better than those who don’t .
The premise that people are measured against each other and ranked.
Are you not going to argue aagainst the claimed connection
between kollel and the shidduch crisis, DaasYochid?
not always and this is true we shouldnt measure and rank people. whoever Hashem wants a person to marry rather they get the zechus to marry someone learning or not does not make them a better or worse person.
The premise that people are measured against each other and ranked.
Are you saying that it shouldn’t be done, or that it isn’t done?
Newbee,
?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ??? ??”?
Is a nice aggadic message stressing the importance of learning Torah but its not taken literally or taken to say a talmid chacham is a better person than a woman or a man who has a learning disability. Or person A should marry person B.
You made that up. You don’t like what Chaza”l say, so you decide that they didn’t mean it. But these things are nogeia l’halacha, regarding priority in aliyos, for example.
Im not sure what question I didn’t answer that you are referring to.
Whether learning Torah leads to more ruchniyus.
I asked, “Do you think there is absolutely no correlation between Torah learning and middos and/or ruchniyus (spirituality)?”
To which you responded, “There is no connection between middos and being an inherently better person.”, which did not answer my question (and was very wrong itself).
Randomex, Are you not going to argue aagainst the claimed connection
between kollel and the shidduch crisis, DaasYochid?
First let someone define the shidduch crisis and state how kollel causes it, then we’ll talk.
daas yochid – it shouldnt be done it isnt nice. how would you like it if people ranked you?
Categorizing some people as talmidei chachomim and categorizing other people as not being talmidei chachomim is ranking them, needs to be done and we do that ranking and it makes a practical difference how we treat each category. So ranking has a basis.
“Categorizing some people as talmidei chachomim and categorizing other people as not being talmidei chachomim is ranking them, needs to be done …”
Agreed but that wasnt the OP
The OP was about which group “are better ” Which as APY said is a falwed question. DOnt worry about being “better” be the best you can be
Whats the difference between being ranked higher and being considered “better”?
The flaw would be if someone would hold himself higher, but not in setting our priorities.
Someone has to work. If you consider the workplace to be spiritual poison, why is it okay to sacrifice someone else to keep yourself pure?
What is flawed is me and you ranking everyone else. That is flawed and wrong. Sure we should all say when will I reach the level of my fathers but that is to ensure our own continuous growth. Not to declare someone better or worse. If a Kollel person inspires someone that a great. If a Kollel person is inspired by someone also great. Its not mine or your place to rank groups of people.
“Whats the difference between being ranked higher and being considered “better”?”
The ranked higher I was reffering to is they are bigger Talmid
Chacham. OF course (generally speaking )those learning in kollel are bigger talmidei chachamim than those working.
The OP was regarding which is better
The big talmud chacham who has terrible middos and (to quote the rambam) is mevazeh the Torah. Or the Working person who learns every free minute?
More to the point. Though why does it matter? Be the best you can be dont worry about being better than other people.
I really dont get this thread.
I think working people are better than kollel people. Though who cares what I think
I thought this is what you were saying in this post
(That a. There are many variables and b. Why does it matter)
Joseph – what about the hidden tzadikim?
ubiquiton – people should rank themselves first before ranking others look at your self before you look at someone else.
reb yid – this is the issue with some people learning in kollel only the best of the best should learn the rest should work to support them.
We should not rank people allow Hashem to do the “ranking”.
I thought this is what you were saying in this post
(That a. There are many variables and b. Why does it matter)
I was and am saying that.
The “all things being equal” qualification when “ranking” people is silly because all things are not equal, and more importantly, the tone of these threads is one of class warfare and debasing others (particularly this one:
But the implication of some of these posts that learning full time or not makes no difference is wrong. As you pointed out, generally, people who are in kollel learn and know more, and denying that this is a positive in a person’s overall ruchniyus is ridiculous.
Not everyone has that opportunity, and only Hashem knows the full picture and can make the ultimate judgement, but to simply say that everything and everyone is equal is to potentially dismiss values which should be important to all of us.
I don’t know where you see that the OP was comparing a “talmid chochom” who is mevazeh the Torah to a balabus who learns every minute he can. He made no such qualification, or I would have surely agreed that the balabus is better (and yes I just ranked them – is that offensive?).
The Gemara on Chagiga 5b says that HKB”H cries three tears: “over him who is able to occupy himself with [the study of] the Torah and does not; and over him who is unable to occupy himself with [the study of] the Torah and does; and over a leader who domineers over the community”
that is not necessarily true what about if a person went to college became a doctor and other than the gashmiyus job he has he stays up learning all night when the one in kollel goes to sleep. i would say the doctor is the better person. The rambam was a doctor and a huge talmid chacham bigger than anyone from this generation plus he was a huge doctor.
The Rambam learned exclusively for years before he became a doctor.
either way he became a doctor and worked as a doctor and he was still very special even while working as a doctor.
I’m all for anyone becoming a doctor if they can learn like the Rambam.
me. but im a girl. but i love learning. but ill never reach the potential of the rambam. no one will ever not even the greatest people of this generation. but that does not mean the greatest people of our generation cant become a doctor and learn at the same time.
DaasYochid,
It is functionaly meaningless (or worse) if used to justify life choices, and especially if to be haughty.
It is not functionally meaningless if the values and prioritization of values are used to make life choices.
In your response to me, you’re discussing the value of an act versus the OP, who is talking about the value of a person. In my mind these are two very different things. We can definitely rank and compare actions and lifestyles, but not people, unless perhaps one is a navi.
Avi K says everyone needs to do their job. Okay, but what if someone has the ability to do either? Should he choose to spend most of his day learning Torah or computer programming?
Learning Torah.
Joseph,
The point certainly does have meaning once you understand the underlying message. Namely that learning more Torah is better than learning less Torah.
What do you mean by “the point”?
As for your second sentence, I agree 100%. But as I wrote to DaasYochid, learning Torah is an act, whereas the OP is referring to the inherent value of a person.
First let someone define the shidduch crisis and state how kollel causes it, then we’ll talk.
As I said earlier, Kollel (as defined by people in their 20s sitting and “learning” (or hanging in the CR, etc.)) does NOT cause the shidduch crisis (as defined by the burning need for many young girls (let’s say ages 19 – 23) to get married, and the consequential large group of older singles). It is the strong desire of girls to marry and ONLY marry the type of boy that will be in “kollel” (as defined) that is theorized to be a strong cause of the shidduch crisis (by any definition). Put it under the “pickier girls” theory.
The outcome of that desire is that when the boys see that girls (or more accurately, the Shvers) are willing to support them, they also realize that it would be stupid of them not to go to “kollel” (as defined) and get a honeymoon with no real responsibilities. For a Bochur, it is like being in Beis Medrash as before but “with benefits”, such as someone to cook meals and a place to impress single bochrim.
So if anything, the shidduch crisis causes Kollel! (a cynic would say this is a planned outcome)
This certainly is speculation, but the theory happens to fit the facts.
FYI to DY, I believe I’m consistent with my arguments here:
If you want, instead of rehashing everything, you can simply agree that we disagree and Shalom Al Yisroel.
How is “the burning need for many young girls (let’s say ages 19 – 23) to get married” a crisis, or how does it lead to large groups of unmarried singles? If they didn’t want to get married, lichorah there would be more.
The cynic is the one who defines kollel as a group of batlanim in it for the easy life. There are some (who are idiots because long term it’s harder), but it’s a minority and in no way defines kollel.
Oh, I guess if you define the shidduch crisis (nonsensically) as too many girls who want to marry kollel boys, you could say that kollel causes it.
DaasYochid – excellent. If you reject my proposed (and rejected) definition of “Kollel”, please define it yourself.
How about Feivel’s implied definition, of those Giborei Chayil who are mistapek B’muat and give up what the norm of their group calls necessities in order to learn Hashem’s Torah for as long as they can with as much Kochos they can put in?
Just Google it.
This is what comes up:
A kolel or kollel (Hebrew: ?????, pl. ??????, kolelim, a “gathering” or “collection” [of scholars]) is an institute for full-time, advanced study of the Talmud and rabbinic literature.
Oh, I guess if you define the shidduch crisis (nonsensically) as too many girls who want to marry kollel boys, you could say that kollel causes it.
Why any different than those who claim that boys go OTD at a much higher rate than girls?
Besides, it’s not that they want to marry them, it’s that they put their self-worth into being married to them, and therefore need to be married ASAP. If they were willing to wait 5 years we wouldn’t have the same crisis.
DaasYochid – define “full-time” and “advanced”. Also, as long as belong to the “institute” you are “in kollel”?
Full-time means the same it would mean for a paying job. Advanced refers to a standard of learning which us obviously subjective. Technically, someone enrolled would be in kollel, the same way someone on the books at a company is technically an employee.
Those are not the kollelim women want their husbands to be in.
I don’t think prospective kollel wives want to get married any significant amount more than girls (from the same community) who want to marry working boys do. There’s plenty of agmas nefesh for these girls.
i agree the MAIN ISSUE with the boys of what ive seen is that too many go otd and then obviously the girls dont want them.
Full-time means the same it would mean for a paying job.
Wouldn’t someone who has a full time job also need to be Koveh Itim? As Rav Moshe is known to have said, before learning in Kollel, you first need to learn like a Baal Habos!
So if the average “Yeraim” Baal HaBos works eight hours (most work more), commute (in the NYC area) two hours, and learn two hours, then shouldn’t full time be 12+ hours?
Advanced refers to a standard of learning which us obviously subjective. Technically, someone enrolled would be in kollel, the same way someone on the books at a company is technically an employee.
So do we need to restate the question as “technical” kollel” vs. actual kollel, as well as only those who are doing at a higher level than a certain agreed-upon standard?
Those are not the kollelim women want their husbands to be in.
But you will agree that they are Kollelim by your definition, and therefore included in the OP’s question (as well as Joe’s follow-up regarding ruchnious?)
I don’t think prospective kollel wives want to get married any significant amount more than girls (from the same community) who want to marry working boys do. There’s plenty of agmas nefesh for these girls.
1: “From the same community” is a huge “No true Scotsman” type exclusion, as Rov of the Yeshivish type girls are looking to marry someone who will at the very least start out as a member of an institute of Torah learning (which may or may not be a “Kollel”).
2: As I explained earlier, if boys who would otherwise be working see strong incentives to be a member of an institute of Torah learning, it leaves fewer boys for girls who want working boys, pushing the issues there as well.
So if the average “Yeraim” Baal HaBos works eight hours (most work more), commute (in the NYC area) two hours, and learn two hours, then shouldn’t full time be 12+ hours?
Sure, if you include the chores he needs to do because he can’t afford an at home babysitter.
As I explained earlier, if boys who would otherwise be working see strong incentives to be a member of an institute of Torah learning, it leaves fewer boys for girls who want working boys, pushing the issues there as well.
So there aren’t enough learning boys, and aren’t enough working boys, and it’s kollel’s fault. Kollel makes boys disappear, I guess.
Sure, if you include the chores he needs to do because he can’t afford an at home babysitter.
Being in Kollel is a life of Mistapek B’muat, and an at-home babysitter is a luxury that most can’t afford (even those who work), especially during the early years of a marriage. But if you want to call “full time” 11.5+ hours, I won’t quibble. Besides, who says the wife can’t pick up and drop off, she does everything else! And if the shver pays for the live in, you are Modeh?
Do you agree with the other points?
So there aren’t enough learning boys, and aren’t enough working boys, and it’s kollel’s fault. Kollel makes boys disappear, I guess.
Yes, it eats them alive, and the homicide unit is still looking for them. Perhaps PBA sat on them and they were squashed flat. 🙂
Seriously though, you missed what I said. It is still the girls needing to marry early, NOT the boys wanting to be a member of an institute of Torah learning. If only all the girls wanted to marry kollel but wouldn’t go out until 24-25 like the boys in BMG…… As I said earlier:
Besides, it’s not that they want to marry them, it’s that they put their self-worth into being married to them, and therefore need to be married ASAP. If they were willing to wait 5 years we wouldn’t have the same crisis.
What other points?
You missed what I responded: in the yeshiva community, all girls (well, most), even those who want to marry working boys, want to marry young. I think that’s a proper value, so if you want to change it by reducing the number of boys learning thereby allowing secular values to seep in to our community even more than it already has so that girls don’t mind if they don’t get married, I’ll have to disagree with you.
Also, if there were enough learning boys, the girls wouldn’t need to wait, so you are sort of being poseiach al shnei s’ifim.
You missed what I responded: in the yeshiva community, all girls (well, most), even those who want to marry working boys, want to marry young. I think that’s a proper value, so if you want to change it by reducing the number of boys learning thereby allowing secular values to seep in to our community even more than it already has so that girls don’t mind if they don’t get married, I’ll have to disagree with you.
DY, this is so twisted and rant-like I don’t even know where to begin. Makes me think you might’ve gotten hacked, this is atypical of your style.
I’ll just protest by saying this is in no way what I said or meant, and call it a day.
Of course that’s not what you said or meant, it’s just the logical conclusion to what you said.
“Sure, if you include the chores he needs to do because he can’t afford an at home babysitter.
Being in Kollel is a life of Mistapek B’muat, and an at-home babysitter is a luxury that most can’t afford”
Generalizations are a bad idea. I know many working families that can not afford an at home babysitter and I know many kollel families that do (although most people I know that utilize a babysitter do not have an at home for the simple reason that it is more cost effective to bring the child/baby to the babysitter)
Generalizations are bad if you apply them incorrectly to a particular situation. They’re not bad for the sake of a general discussion.
My point is that as kollel is not a lucrative profession, it is to be expected that often he will need to spend time taking care of household needs, which someone with more money can avoid.
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