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I found one in my basement that my father bought at an auction a while back. We were thinking to give it to someone who is getting married next month. Are decorative ones okay to use though? My sister and brother in law had one that was just writing.
Assuming they meet the standard requirements for sh’taros and kesubos, why shouldn’t they be?
The Wolf
Kesuba does not need to be Lishma like the “other” document.
Kesuba does not need to be Lishma like the “other” document.
You mean my mortgage application? 🙂
The Wolf
Decorative kesubos are kosher. However, it is more likely to have a mistake on a decorative kesubah than the standard ones. Decorative ones are often hand-written, and a mistake might not be caught. The standard ones were checked multiple times, and the same one is printed off each time.
I was told that I should use a standard printed one for the wedding, and if I wanted a fancy one, I could get one to hang up – but it wouldn’t be my “official” kesubah.
I was told that I should use a standard printed one for the wedding, and if I wanted a fancy one, I could get one to hang up – but it wouldn’t be my “official” kesubah.
Heh. That’s EXACTLY what we have. 🙂 The real kesubah is a plain, printed one that Eeees has. We also have a decorative fake one made by a friend which is hanging up on our wall.
The Wolf
I could get one to hang up
I was told (by one of the Gedolei Poskim not as a psak but a comment) that a kesubah shouldn’t be hung up (i.e. on a wall).
The idea of having two (one “official”, one decorative) may cause issues of ??? ???? ?????? ???? i.e. it opens the possibility of double-claiming. One suggestion is to make the decorative one Posul e.g. having only 1 ?? sign it.
Pac-Man – Was that refering to a real kesubah (used)?
Hopefully the Mesder Kidushin is not included in
?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????????. ?? ??? ?? ??? ????
He is the one that should be running the show, and should be consulted before hand
At my own wedding our mesader, one of the
senior poskim, came prepared with a printed Kesuba that
he checked. He was not going to proof read on the spot.
r-b: If I recall it was regarding an older invalidated (due to an error) kesubah. He also added (disapprovingly) that he saw people hang up their (real) kesubah.
Pac-Man – What would be a problem with hanging up a invalid kesubah?
Is it true that it a ketuba also includes the misdeeds of a BT?
That might be good enough reason for most to not put it up on the wall!
The idea of having two (one “official”, one decorative) may cause issues of ??? ???? ?????? ???? i.e. it opens the possibility of double-claiming. One suggestion is to make the decorative one Posul e.g. having only 1 ?? sign it.
Not an issue by us. Everything (including the witnesses names) are in my wife’s handwriting. It’s very clear that they aren’t the signatures of the actual people.
The Wolf
Pac-Man,
Was there a reason given for this disapproval? And since this is a well known Gadol, can you disclose who it is?
The Wolf
@ TikkunHatzot ?? Whether to include the words ?????? ??
see ????? ??? ??? ??”? ???? ?”?
I just checked my wife’s kesuba & I don’t see anything in it that would make me want to hang it up for display. It’s a financial commitment and belongs in a secure place just as all important documents.
I was at a Chupa where there were quite a few Roshei Yeshiva present. During the reading of the Kesuba an error was spotted (The leg of the ? in ??????was not filled in). All the great lomdim who said who knows how many hours of shiurim in Kesubos could figure not out how to proceed. Luckily there was a practicing Posek who directed that the ????? should be said & the Kesuba attended to afterwards.
I didn’t ask him the reason. (Maybe it is tacky; I don’t know that there is a strict halachic problem. Also, I don’t recall with certitude if he was only referring to the kosher kesubah, or both the kosher and the invalidated kesubah.)
some are and some are not. Show it to a Rav who knows the relevant halachos
Pac-Man – In one post you stated he was referring to an invalidated kesubah, where as in a later post you say you don’t recall to which he was referring to!?
I said definitely a kosher one and possibly an invalidated one as well.
A hung Kesuba can be taken by the husband in a dispute and she can lose the power to claim the kesuba $$$$ in event of divorce. It has happened.
The Center for Jewish History had an exhibit of decorated manuscripts a while back, including beautiful haggadot, megillot, and ketubot. All were kosher. (Interestingly, the oldest illustrated megillah in existence was enscribed by a woman. The megillah is an exception to the general halachah that STAM must be written by a man.)
we may have solved the problem. I typeset our ketubah, and had it printed on a large sheet of paper. Afterwards, we had an artist friend adorn the perimeter of the ketubah.
Non-active kesuba, no problem. Active kesuba is not advised.
cherrybim: Are you talking about decorating it or plastering it on the wall?
Non-active kesuba, no problem. Active kesuba is not advised.
Pac-Man – This is why I am asking, because this is what you posted earlier: If I recall it was regarding an older invalidated (due to an error) kesubah.
cherrybim: decorating or hanging?
r-b: The sentence started with “If I recall” is a tentative statement; the following sentence beggining with “He also added” is a definitive statement.
Pac-Man – Ok.
“decorating or hanging”
Public display is not appropriate. No one holds decorating is a problem.
There are plenty of large collections, both public and private, of illuminated Judaica including kesubos. I guess any concerns about double claims are irrelevant when everyone concerned is safely dead. Some of the older examples are very interesting. The AMNH (don’t ask me why it’s there instead of an art museum) has a kesuba of a kohen from the era of the geonim where the nusach actually enumerates all the chiyuvim in both directions instead of just saying ????? ????? ???????
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