Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?

tiawd

Some people you give a compliment and they return an insult.
Just kidding.
You have taken my words out of their intended context. I’m not saying you have lo leave per se. I’m saying that if the choices are to either act out or live a Torah-less lifestyle, one should instead leave. I am, however, not the who contended that there is no choice of living a Torah life there and not acting out. I quote a wise man (mysef) “But don’t stay if a requirement of living there is committing gezel against regular everyday people.”

You, however, seem to be saying of your own accord that “the army right now is no place for a ben Torah,” and you are saying ” we can’t be part of it.”

So then if all residents of Israel are being forced to be part of it, part of a place which is NOT for a ben Torah, should he not rather leave, then be in a situation which would undermine and ruin his Torah values and taint him beyond repair?

TDH:
I apologize for the attack. I posted before your complimentary post cleared.

I misunderstood your point. I personally don’t believe the only choices are to be drafted into the army or to act like a hooligan (or to leave). Even those who support these protests should agree that no one has yet been forced to join the army against their will. If you don’t want to register with the army, you can always get thrown into jail coming back from a bein hazmanim trip. You don’t have to get arrested at a violent hafganah. (Although maybe the police would have an easier time if all those it recognizes as deserters all convened in one large hafganah so they can arrest them all in one place.)

tiawd

An ancient Indian saying. Never attack someone, because for all you know he might have sent you a compliment which you have not yet received.

Your idea to form a communal jail chabura, to accommodate both the police AND the deserters, is nothing short of brilliant (Another compliment – beware)

YFRBachur -“If you are a part of Peleg, The Eida, Neturie Karta, parts of Brisk,Satmar – you think that the protests are the greatest Kidush Hashem possible.”

I agree with you about Peleg, NK.
But I’m part of the Brisk world and I never seen such Rishous in the Medina – ever before!
In our generation, it’s PC to look Frum, but not really know what Yiddishkeit is all about!

>Well, well.<

Tom Dick and Harry “Burning cars of innocent random people? How does stealing from those innocent people address the aggressors of the anti Torah regime? That is simple misplaced aggression and simple gezel.”

To save your life you can do all sorts of things. I don’t recommend burning cars. In my mind, the mistake everyone makes, including the Arabs, is underestimating the evil of the zionists. They’d be perfectly happy to slaughter a hundred thousand people. So if you start with burning cars, there’s no telling what they’d do.

“If projectiles are coming out of Gaza, maybe that’s because we imposed a 10 year blockade?”

It’s not just Israel that realizes that Hamas is a terrorist entity bent on slaughtering Jews, the US, the UK and the entire civilized world realize it also. Yet MTAB and his ilk defend them and blame Israel. I should be surprised but I’m not because they practice the very same kind of terrorism. They are nothing more than modern day biryonim who commit violence against Jews, just to make a point.

MTAB
“The thief is the zionist state. They stole from Judaism, stole the language, stole the symbols, they even stole tanach as their literature even though they don’t listen to its call for teshuva. They wanted a country and every country needs language and symbols so they stole from the Orthodox. And now they won’t let the Orthodox be Orthodox.”

Many people who lack intellectual honesty and the ability to really hear another opinion, would comfortably sit and dismiss your words as fanatic paranoia, or even worse, deliberate lies, but not I. I hear your heartfelt pain and I am ashamed of myself that I have become desensitized to the adulteration of Tanach and Lashon Kodesh etc.

I could easily just continue arguing my point, and maybe even win (or maybe not), without even stopping to admit that while my logic may be logical, it has not taken into account what you are saying here, and what the Jewish heart should be pained about. Truthfully, I must therefore, in light of what you are saying here which I didn’t really think of properly until now, restart to think over the issue from scratch with bearing in mind what you are saying here, and see what conclusion I’ll come to then, and I can’t just assume that I’ll certainly be able to maintain my logical logic as I had from the beginning.

That much intellectual honesty, I do have.

Phil writes “Yet MTAB and his ilk defend them and blame Israel.” I love that word ‘ilk’. Whenever I see that I realize I’m dealing with somebody who cannot discuss issues. Anybody who disagrees is just bad.

I’m afraid this matter isn’t binary Mr. Phil. There are nuances. If u continue to think in a binary fashion jews are always good, arabs are always bad, then you’ll live forever in a state of war.

I don’t even know what you mean by ‘defends them’ meaning hamas. Did i say they should shoot rockets? I said it’s a result of the blockade. If you push arabs too much, you’ll get violence. Jews in golus have a principle, don’t start up with the goyim.

We have had peace with egypt and jordan for 40 years. Do they love us in those countries. Wouldn’t they love to destroy us. But you can still have peace.

Putting a blockade because of an election result is provocation on the part of Israel. Israel does that often. If you knew anything about the real history of the state you’d know that. But you live in an echo chamber, where all you hear is your own voice and of people of your ilk.

MTAB,

1. Did you learn your hatred in the Ukraine or did you go there to be with like-minded people?
2. FYI, the Tanach, hebrew language, etc. belong to all of Am Yisrael.
3. The fact of the matter is that these riots are about a power struggle within the Lithuanian Hareidi community. After Rav Schach was niftar there was a dispute over his successor and Rav Shteinman won. Rav Auerbach would not accept so he started the Peleg. What is interesting is that Peleg’s grandson was Serug. The שי”ן and סמ”ך are interchangeable so perhaps this means that eventually that they will do teshuva.

avi k, the tanach belongs to whoever listens to its message. If you turn it into a book of cute stories than it is not yours. Same with the land of israel.

It was not the land that Moses had been commanded to proclaim to his people at the outset of his mission as מורשה, as the inheritance they were to preserve (Ex. 6,8). The Law, to be translated into full reality upon that soil, was to be the true מורשה, the one true, everlasting inheritance, the one true center around which the nation and its leaders were to gather as one united community. Herein lay the goal and the destiny, the character and the significance of the people.

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch “The Kehillah,” Collected Writings, Vol. VI, p. 62

MTAB
“Read the shema, if you violate the commandments i will toss you out! That applies to the fry not the frum.”

Are you sure about that? I don’t know if the fry are given the ‘asher bha’avoso vehochachtiv beshevet anashim uvenigai benay adam’ treatment, which is for children who still behave like children but err. Fry have distanced themselves to the point that they are like the goyim who do the expelling, not the Yidden who are expelled. FYI we are still in Galus, and maybe the suffering under the Zionist state is the final stage of our galus. If it would be Arabs who created a state there and make gezairos giyus, you wouldn’t think of demonstrating this way. As I said a bunch of posts ago, you think we can be heimish with Zionist baryonim because they’re our brothers. It seems I’m less of a Zionist than you.