Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?

This past shabbos, krias hatorah. בראשית י׳-כ״ה. ״שם האחד ׳פלג׳ כי בימיו מפלגה בארץ״

ZD -I have no desire to defend the Eitznikim/Peleg people, but I need to correct what you wrote. They were not arrested for not being in Yeshiva; in a random check, their names came up as not having registered for the draft, hence they were arrested as deserters. It was bein hazemanim, the yeshivas were closed. I don’t think we can begrudge a yeshiva bochur some time off (even soldiers get time off), it does not take away from the significance of their learning. Yeshiva bochurim are human, no one can expect them to be stheiging away 365 days a year, 12h a day without burning out. the point of bein hazemanim is for the bochurim to recharge so that they can focus during the upcoming zeman. They get off from Motzei Yom Kippur until Rosh CHodesh Cheshvan (by the time Sukkos is over that gives them 1 week of free time), and then no break until Purim and Rosh Chodesh Nissan. There are many bein hazemanim yeshivos were the bochurim spend their mornings learning even during vacation, they are entitled to take a day or two away. A yeshiva schedule can be pretty grueling (night seder can run until 11 PM, plenty stay in the Beis Medrash even later), and so when used correctly, bein hazemanim improves a bochur’s learning. And better off vacationing at the Dead Sea than protesting on the street. B”H the zeman starts today.

Freddyfish
“Who do you hold like when there’s a machlokes gedolim ? Whoever you want?!?!?!?”

The Satmarer Rebbe ZT”L said on many occasions that we have no leaders in our times whom we can follow afilu al yemin shehu smoll.

That doesn’t mean chas vesholom that we judge our Rebbees, because it really isn’t up to understand what misconception brought the Rebbee to make the error. But we may not do something which we know is ossur and for which we have no way of reconciling a psak contrary to that.

There is a video clip of Rav Shach ZT”L speaking when the Degel party was launched. He emphatically stated that אלימות is not acceptable, and that all behavior needs to be like bnei Torah. He also said openly that anyone engaging in אלימות should be reported to police. And he was addressing his own agenda for politics, clearly a “just cause” for him, yet he admonished against sinking to the level of behaving violently and offensively.

It might be a good idea to locate the clip and post it on YWN.

Much of the debate seems to be ignoring the longer term effects of these demonstrations on the growing social divide between the Chareidi tzibur and the rest of the tzibur in EY. Perhaps they really don’t care about the price they and their families will pay for this ongoing chilul hashem.

To Little I Know…

Very well said….as long as the 95+% of the chareidi tzibur and gadolei yisroel choose to remain silent about this ongoing chilul hashem of the Peleg hoodlums, this will sadly continue and worsen. Aside from some indirect and vague comments such as those published here in the letter from Rav Kanievsky, shlita, the silence is deafening.

שולחן ערוך חושן משפט ס, קסג סע’ א

כופין בני העיר זה את זה (אפי’ מיעוט כופין את המרובין) (רבי ירוחם נל”א ח”ו) לעשות חומה דלתים ובריח לעיר ולבנות להם בית הכנסת ולקנות ספר תורה נביאים וכתובים כדי שיקרא בהם כל מי שירצה מן הצבור:

הגה: וה”ה לכל צרכי העיר וע’ בא”ח סי’ נ”ה דין שכירות חזן לבני העיר גם סי’ נ”ג שם וכופין בני העיר זה את זה להכניס אורחים ולחלק להם צדקה וליתן בתוך כיס של צדקה (מרדכי פ”ק דב”ב ותשובת מיימוני ספר קנין סי’ נ”ט) וע”ל סי’ ד’ וסי’ ז’ בני העיר שיש להם דין עם יחיד אם יכולים לדונו ואם נקראים מוחזקין דין שכירות למניין ע’ בא”ח סוף סי’ נ”ה ועל הוצאות שהוציאו לבער מסור כל הדרים בעיר חייבים ליתן לזה (הרא”ש בתשובה כלל ו’ סי’ כ”א כ”ז וכפול לקמן סי’ שפ”ח) כל צרכי ציבור שאינן יכולין להשוות עצמן יש להושיב כל בע”ב הנותנים מס ויקבלו עליהם שכל אחד יאמר דעתו לשם שמים וילכו אחר הרוב ואם המיעוט ימאנו הרוב יכולין לכוף אותן אפילו בדיני עכו”ם ולהוציא ממון על זה והם צריכין לתת חלקם והמסרב מלומר דעתו ע”פ החרם בטילה דעתו ואזלי’ בתר רוב הנשארים האומרים דעתן (תשו’ מוהר”ם ספר קנין סי’ כ”ז והגמי”י פי”א דתפלה) וע’ בי”ד סי’ רנ”ו אימת חייב ליתן לכיס של צדקה:

Each voter (and someone who does not pay taxes has no right to vote) gives HIS opinion (not his rav’s opinion) L’SHEM SHEMAYIM ׂׂ(and not for some personal interest). Neither Rav Kook nor Rav Soloveichik would give advice on these matters. They would only set forth the alternatives and their ramifications. Rav Tzvi Yehuda would not even reveal for which party he voted and gave a beracha to any party that asked for it as he felt that each one had something to offer.

The Rosh Yeshiva of Ohr Yisroel, whose shiur was interrupted the other day by the Eitznikim who apparently think that their Torah is better than his, came out with a scathing statement against their behavior, comparing them to Arab terrorists who are destroying everything kadosh. The Yated also came out against the protests.

We can’t expect the earth to open up and swallow the makers of machlokes, as it did for Korach (who by the way, was considered a great Talmid Chochom and a Gadol Hador before his desire for Kavod corrupted him) or a fire to consume the “offerings” of those who think they are aspiring for holiness but are actually defiling the Torah. But hopefully, these voices will be heard and Kvod HaTorah restored.

Gadolhadorah
Why are people following this individual? What happened to their sechel? But it’s this Daas Torah agenda which is keneged Hatorah, which says submit your brains to other mortals and don’t think. We all know the expression ‘I was just following orders.’

zahavasdad

I’m not asking. I’m clearly saying that we don’t follow anyone, even a gadol, to chas vesholom violate The Torah. I’m also saying that we need to have the ability to think with our own brain and heart.

I was so holding back from commenting on this issue…

My Gadol says I have a right to use the street to walk in. My Gadol says I have a right to use the Reshus Harabim to drive a car. My Gadol says עביד איביש דינא לנפשיה and if anyone is blocking my car from going rightfully… just proceed slowly… (as we pasken בר דעת הוה ליה לברוח). I’m so so disgusted with that mayhem FOR ITS SAKE taking place daily…hurting and affecting thousands of innocents… If we pasken אסור להציל עצמו בממון חבירו, how much more so here when one is making a point to someone or someones בממון חבירו and בממון הרבים. Sorry folks, Gezel Harabim is serious stuff. Dead serious.

And one more point if I may… What is there to hope for in a Bochur who is told to throw off all authority, create havoc and לאז זיך וואול גיין with abandon for a week (+) straight. Is he going to turn out to be a Ben Torah with Middos to match?

There’s a difference between protest and violence.
I think we all can agree those being violent are not making a kiddush Hashem.

Beyond that, I’m not quite sure why there are 4 pages here of back and forth.

“She has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against people who are acquitted of them but even against those who were never charged. It is her modus operandi in pushing her agenda against frum Jews, who are inevitably her victims of false allegations, as anything alleged against gentiles she’s suddenly all skeptical about. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of her being raised in an MO family where Chareidim are looked upon with disdain, suspicion and much worse. She never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.”

Can’t believe I missed this earlier. You are a liar Joseph, a straight up liar. Your theory is trash and you, sir, are s very sick man, if even that.

Had anyone claimed before this thread was started that the protests were a Kiddush haShem?

Phil – thank you so much. I am very grateful for your defense. I only read the thread sporadically and didn’t recognize your kind gesture.

You people are such wimps. Real Americans. Soft, living in a soft country. And you project all this onto the Torah. All you really are saying is that in nice polite America Jews wouldn’t act this way. I hope they would if they had to. You don’t have a draft there. When there was a draft there was plenty of violent protesting. Now, everything is nice and polite. Well goody for you.

In Israel the rules are entirely different. The norms are different. Israel is a rough place. Blocking traffic is pretty civil for Israelis. And the government is the one starting off this battle. They have a secular military and they are telling Charedim they must hand over their children to this intense brain washing machine called the IDF. Do you understand? This isn’t about failing to register for the exemption. The exemptions are over. And people here have asked, pleaded, and politely protested. It doesn’t work. The Israeli government is like a stone. You have no idea what it’s like over here. And you sit in judgement of your brothers who are terrified. Shame on all of you for your petty little judgments. You toss around the term chillul Hashem. You don’t know what you are talking about. This is a time to stand up for your brothers and not for siding with the secular government. Do you have any other solution to this problem? No, all you have is your effeminate whining. I promise you will all be judged by Heaven for not siding with your brothers, for the loyal Jews who have no choice but to take this action. If you want to propose that the plan isn’t practical that’s another matter. But to scoff at them and call them names? You who sit in your living rooms or your computer chairs while these brave kids risk arrest. I admire them. And you? You are all mouth.

The protesters are also accomplishing another thing. Until now, demonstration, when conducted in a reasonable and peaceful fashion, did serve a useful purpose in getting frum voices heard in Israel. But now that they are demonstrating in this vicious way and angering everybody with it, they are putting demonstrations in such a bad light that they have totally destroyed the prospect of ever again utilizing the means of any sort of demonstration, even peaceful.

MTAB, i see that you are a baal hotza’at shem ra. In other words, you have an ownership interest in HST.

Avrohom, in the wedding cases the police and everyone else knew beforehand so they could prepare alternate routes. However, I do agree that the blockage should be kept to a minimum. Other demonstrations that block whole areas should also be dispersed forthwith.

To MTAB:
“But now the Israeli government, having conquered the Arabs, is coming after the Charedim with their draft into their secular brainwashing machine”
If that is your true belief, than we will likely have to wait for z’man moishiach to see if your relentless paranoia and sinas chinam propelled you into olam haboh….the views of a large percentage of frum yidden go counter to yours and when we look for you at the YWN booth in olam haboh, you will be nowhere to be seen. Such a dark and evil view of the medinah is worse than anything R Aurbach could possibly conjure up.

MTAB
Thank you for your clear articulate post.
I agree that we may not judge our brothers in Israel for all the reasons you mentioned plus more. But we may judge any activity without judging the people.

I want to make 2 points.
1. What would you say if the means used to demonstrate would be burning random cars. That’s certainly gezel, right? would anything you mentioned in your argument justify that? Presumably not. Well, this what they are doing is basically the same.

2. Just imagine if there would e a mandatory draft in the USA, in which any Yeshiva bachur could be drafted, and he would immediately lose his innocence forever and never be the same. Do you think we would take the liberty to demonstrate this way? But in Israel, we are making an assumption, that the Zionist government are our brothers so we can be heimish and take liberties to act out. The fact is that from the time the state was formed it required an army which could not realistically have been a group of b’nei Torah. So, yes, they took over the land without asking the charedi population who had already been living there. But that’s a bygone and we can’t turn back the clock. Now the question remains what do you do? If you live there, you are certainly in need of army protection, and you are benefiting endlessly from the army. So you are deliberately taking benefit from people who are living in a way against The Torah. You are actually benefiting from the very actions that are against The Torah, meaning the anti Torah lifestyle that is the army. That is equivalent to supporting and condoning their actions. If you truly believe that a Jew may not live that way, then how could you be relying and receiving this benefit from them, as they are basically our shluchim in this because we need them to be doing it. It’s like the rosh yeshiva who didn’t allow yeshiva bachurim to drive but always took hitches from boys who violated the rule. That’s hypocrisy. Yes, our land was taken over by people who are living a Torah-less life, and who rely on that lifestyle for the very existence and survival of the people. So that leaves us no honest choice but to either stop benefiting from them or to leave the country. Stopping benefiting means not simply not taking money, because there’s is still the huge benefit of the military protection. So not benefiting means not taking ANY freebies, in other words doing our share in the army. OR MOVE AWAY!

But to live there and be a menace and a gazlan to the society at large?

Avrohom Haivri
“About blocking streets and Gezel Zman etc. Did you have the same concerns when the Belzer Chasuna or Gerrer Chasuna blocked the whole Yerushalayim ? What about Hachnosas sefer Torah which blocks streets?”

These people are not deliberately trying to disturb. They are just conducting their activities for the sake of those activities, and the public is accommodating them. In a society, we all need to accommodate each other to conduct the activities that are important to each person or group. So people work together to accommodate and they plan things accordingly, each person taking every other person into account.

In these protests though, the sole intention is exactly to disturb and disrupt. It’s not a side effect which is unintended but unavoidable. It’s the purpose. That’s the means they are using to make their point. There is no request for accommodation. There is a demand for putting up with menace.

See the difference?

People with regularly schedualed events get Permits so the police and locals know just to avoid those areas. An Ambulance would rarely get stuck there as it would use an alternate route. Maybe add a few mins but thats all

MTAB: I’m not in my comfortable living room chair in America, I’m in Eretz Yisrael and every day I’m unsure of how long it will take me to get home from Yerushalayim because of the actions of a bunch of hooligans.
I understand the fear and panic, but that doesn’t justify this type of behavior. All of this is coming from a sense of panic that the chareidi world as we know it will come to an end. But is that an excuse to change yeshiva bochurim from bnei aliyah who can be recognized for their middos and refined behavior into people who act obnoxiously? Where does this mindset of “the end justifies the means” come from? Isn’t that the antithesis of Torah? I believe it was R’ Yisrael Salanter who said “men darf nit oiftun, men darf tun”. Our job is not to get results; that’s not in our hands. All we can do is carry out what Hashem wants from us.
I realize we live in difficult, scary times. But we have no right to do whatever seems to us most likely to get results if it is not muttar and proper behavior. At the end of the day Hashem is in charge.

Tom Dick n Harry: Are you really serious that anyone who disagrees with the medinah should leave Eretz Yisrael?! What’s hypocritical about living in Eretz Yisrael, under the rule of the Zionist government, and disagreeing vociferously with some of its policies? True, as the situation is now, the existence of Jewish settlement in Eretz Yisrael depends on army to defend it. But that army does not necessarily have to be against the Torah. The non-Torah lifestyle of the chilonim and their army is not what we are benefitting from; we are benefitting from the fact that there is an army bichlal. Since that army right now is no place for a ben Torah, we can’t be part of it. But it’s ridiculous to claim that our only non-hypocritical choices are to support everything the medinah stands for or leave. Why should we leave? This is our land.