- This topic has 224 replies, 53 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
What point weโre you trying to make with that line?
That Syag was dismissive of the fact that Gedolim support the protests by writing them off as fanatics. (I had used the term too frum.)
I do not support that point.
If you give taxes then yes you are entitled to benefits. That wasn’t my point. My point was if you are so opposed to keeping the laws of the land because you believe that living in eretz yisrael is going to force your kids to go off the Derech and the only way to get your voice heard is by acting like an animal, then probably Hashem would rather you live in chutz laaretz and stay frum.
Every Jew has a right to live in eretz yisrael but not on his or her own terms. If I want to sell drugs and the government wants to deport me back to the USA, can I still use the argument that Israel belongs to all Jews? How about if your neighbor is a child molester and they want to deport him. Will you say then, “eretz yisrael belongs to all of us yidden so he should be allowed to stay here” or will you say “good riddance, send him to planet mars for all I care”.
Ideally the government would do everything according to Halacha and we daven for Mashiach every day. Meanwhile, the medina is in charge and Baruch Hashem there are some chareidi politicians who could possibly figure this out if they had been approached respectfully.
Btw probably a large part of the reason the chareidim are in this mess in the first place is due to the fact that during the last election, avreichim were kicked out of their Kollels if they voted for the wrong chareidi party. Instead having achdus, they split themselves up amongst the politicians running and they lost seats for the chareidim in the Knesset.
Joseph:
You wrote: “TLIK: As I explained at length a number of times in this thread, Civil Disobedience is acceptable under the circumstances.”
I do not think you get my point. You may protest against the government – that’s who you have beef with. Yell, scream, have fun. But the blocking of the streets is not protesting the government. It is throwing a tantrum that harms others who are not the target of the rage. Maybe some here are claiming the rage is unwarranted. I’m not saying that. But if you harm me by stopping me from getting to the doctor or to work, you are ืืืื. The right to be disobedient is not the right to damage others. If you think you have that right, get a psychiatric evaluation, ASAP. It is very distorted thinking. Choose between between being immoral, or psychotic. Professional help is needed for the latter.
TLIK: Do you know what civil disobedience is?
DY: I haven’t said you did. You merely provided a literary assistance.
I don’t understand what the hava amina of those who call for these protests is. (I don’t care for the moment whether R’ Shmuel supports these disruptive protests or not.) What are they meant to accomplish, other than inconveniencing thousands of people and making chareidim look really bad? Do they really think the government will say, “Oh, they’re blocking traffic again. Let’s just release all the bochurim who have been arrested and immediately pass a law that no chareidi should ever be required to register for the draft again.” Really?!
Also, what did they expect. Fine, their psak is not to register for the draft. Of course, the police will arrest anyone who does so and becomes a deserter by law. So then they will stage a protest and block traffic, and the police will come and arrest protesters, and then they will protest again, and then they will arrest more people etc. etc. Isn’t this an endless cycle and an exercise in futility?Tiawd, the end game here would seem to be finding some legal way to leave yeshiva bochurim alone, the most obvious and perhaps, long term, the most likely way being abolishing the draft and switching to a paid armed forces.
Sure, the politicians might not admit that they’re giving in, but history has proven these types of things to be effective.
Every Jew has a right to live in eretz yisrael but not on his or her own terms. If I want to sell drugs and the government wants to deport me back to the USA, can I still use the argument that Israel belongs to all Jews?
Kind of unfair to compare someone who wants to be a drug dealer to someone who wants to not be forced into the IDF.
interjection: The Ran in Nedarim clearly paskens that ever Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel and that the Halacha of Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply in Eretz Yisroel.
DY, I understand what the end game is. What I cannot fathom, though, is how these protests are expected to further that goal.
Not to compare the justness of the causes, or the means used to further them, but can you fathom how BLM protests make cops think twice before shooting a black person?
That Syag was dismissive of the fact that Gedolim support the protests by writing them off as fanatics.
Syag, I apologize for unintentionally providing literary assistance for that offensive and wrong point.
In Israel polite protests that don’t inconvenience those who we want the message to be heard by are completely ineffective and a waste of time. The State of Israel isn’t like America and Europe when it comes to responding to the pain of protesters. Tht Zionists couldn’t care, and would laugh off, a protest against the draft by half a million Chareidim who got a protest permit to politely walk or stand on the sidewalk.
Might as well as stay home, accept the draft, leave Yeshiva and either enlist or go to jail.
DY, that’s because it’s unpolitically correct for the cops to be seen as racists. However, it is pretty politically correct to be anti-chareidi, and violent protests seen by the general public as stupid, at best, only make that more politically correct. Look at some of the comments here, posted by frum Jews, about these potesters, and now imagine what the opinion of the chiloni on the street must be of them.
The legal method is to simply register and get your deferment, as has been done for decades
Joseph, so you’d be ok if chilonim practised civil disobedience by marching into Meah Shearim on Shabbos playing loud music
In any case, this is a vicious cycle that will continue until one side or the other backs down. The question is how much damage will have been done in the meantime, and will this really have benefitted the chareidi public in Eretz Yisrael?
Tiawd, the cops are afraid for their lives and jobs, not of political correctness.
To use another example (again, not comparing the morality of it), most Israelis don’t agree with the “Palestinian” cause, yet terrorism has led to many painful concessions.
LC, the court recently made it illegal, and not all yeshivas are registered as deferment eligible.
Joseph, so youโd be ok if chilonim practised civil disobedience by marching into Meah Shearim on Shabbos playing loud music
He specifically said he only supports civil disobedience if the cause is just.
Syag is simply in denial that Gedolei Yisroel initiated these protests. She has a habit of speaking falsehoods and putting words in other’s mouths. Falsely accusing others of anything from being a molester, child abuser, violent spouse or teacher is one of her hallmarks. She has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against people who are acquitted of them but even against those who were never charged. It is her modus operandi in pushing her agenda against frum Jews, who are inevitably her victims of false allegations, as anything alleged against gentiles she’s suddenly all skeptical about. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of her being raised in an MO family where Chareidim are looked upon with disdain, suspicion and much worse. She never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.
In any case, this is a vicious cycle that will continue until one side or the other backs down.
And Peleg thinks the government will be the one to back down.
” That Syag was dismissive of the fact that Gedolim support the protests by writing them off as fanatics. (I had used the term too frum.)”
too many pronouns to know what you are trying to say but distorting my words is a profession for you and I don’t appreciate it.
I couldn’t have been dismissive of the fact that Gedolim support the protests because they don’t. I did not write anyone off as fanatics, that was the wording of your choice for the example you made up with no particular relevance.
My comment was that it was a stupid question. You are asking if we would follow a gadol who tells us to act disgusting toward other people and break many many mitzvos bein adom l’chaveiro. That would never happen so its just a dumb question.
For you to TWIST that into me calling the gedolim fanatics , ch”v, is yet another disgusting ploy of yours. That people are surprised that someone like you who supports wife beating and hitting children, slapping students and supporting molestors, unless they are caught in the act by a complete Sanhedrin, is beyond me. That anyone who looks at violence as a standard mode of communication should call these protests anything but civil is no chiddish.
TLIK has it right on the mark.Tantruming is a way of bullying people into giving you what you want. And when it is deliberate, as opposed to a sensory meltdown, for example, it is unquestionable a bullying tactic. It is just easier to get away with not being identified for what it is.
Joseph:
Aside from the fact that protesting politely is far more consistent with Torah (ืืจืืื ืืจืื ื ืืขื), let’s even say there is some sort of dispensation for being less polite. But it is criminal to victimize someone else. I did not have a thing to do with the giyus, the politicians, the arrests, etc. There is absolutely no heter to inconvenience or damage me. BTW, civil disobedience implies that the disobedience is civil. Spitting, setting fires, impeding ambulances and innocent citizens is anything but civil. The trigger for their rage is not an excuse to be an animal or to damage others.
“Joseph, so youโd be ok if chilonim practised civil disobedience by marching into Meah Shearim on Shabbos playing loud music”
DY said: “He specifically said he only supports civil disobedience if the cause is just.”
To the Chilonim, promulgating their values are a just cause. They would probably tell you that they believe in personal freedom and rational thinking (and whatever else atheists like to say).
Once you play the game that some of these Chareidim are playing by trying to strong arm, the Chilonim can play harder. They have greater numbers, greater legislative ability, more money, and better tactics. How about there becomes a “good reason” to shut the water for Meah Shearim.
To Joseph and fellow travelers from the rabbinical infallibility camp. We can gain some clarity from navi and its explanation in Bavli( Bav Basra 21) that malfeasance of a talmid reflects poorly on his rebbe. I think is is not hard to come the concept of orur oseh meleches hashem rimiah when seeing yesterday’s picture of these people blocking an ambulance. In the same theme, the chareidi oilam and rabbanim freely admit that their finest products will be smmaded up by 2.5 years in the army. Lost on them is the concept of a Jew rooted so deeply in his mesorah that he can withstand any nisoyon. Shoddy workmanship seems to rule the day. Hashen yeracham olenu.
Chodesh tov.
Regarding civil disobedience and other protests: In a democracy, citizens have the right to protest. But they do not have the right to block traffic without obtaining police permits.
Therefore, those who protest and block traffic without permission from the police are violating the law. It does not matter whether the protestors are supporters of Russian Jewry, handicapped or Eitznikim. In a democratic society, there is (and should be) one law of free speech for all — regardless of opinion.As a seasoned journalist, I would like to offer PR advise to all demonstrators: Don’t get the public upset at your blocking traffic or calling IDF soldiers “Nazis”. Such behavior deviates from the message that you’re trying to convey. That in turn will make your job at trying to influence public opinion umpteen times harder.
That being said, I also have the right to counter-protest the demonstrators who have prevented me from coming home from work at a reasonable hour and missing my Torah shiur.
Can we stop using the term “Gedolim” (plural) when discussing who supports the protests. As far as I know Rav Shuel Aurbach is a dass yachid (singular) as the only one who is seen as the cause of the protests. No one has yet even proven on this discussion if he indeed has made a public statement approving the protests themselves. My understanding is that the clear majority of the “The Gedolim” believe bachurim should register and are against the protests. Does anyone have documentation otherwise?
There are many ways to serve one’s country. In sophisticated and healthy societies, people contribute according to their aptitudes. Kindly people become social workers. Those who are good at math become scientists or accountants or math teachers if they also happen to be good at teaching. And solders become solders. A normal country needs all of these contributions, these ways of serving. In Israel, which claims to having a modern economy and vibrant democracy, there’s a common conception that everybody has to be a solder, even people who are not cut out for it, even people who are damaged by the experience. The claim is that security needs dictate this but this is an opinion not a fact. The fact is Israel has not been in a war against another country in 40 years and arguably a country doesn’t need every young person in military uniform unless it is at war. Israel needs defense forces but it does not need to act as though it is in a major war when it is not. There’s a big price a country pays for excessive militarism.
It is possible that all the calls for military service have little to do with security needs but are rather a habit that formed when the state was founded. It is possible also that it is a kind of religion that was founded by people who rebelled against their traditional religion and formed a new one. As the saying goes, Israel is not a country with its very own military. It’s a military with its very own country. And that military has a very intense culture that is secular, aggressive, full of swagger and other traits that are contrary to traditional Judaism. The insistence that all Charedim “serve” in the military, or let us say serve the military, is arguably a violation of religious freedom. That some people in Israel, particularly the National Religious, see this as a dereliction of duty, is perhaps because the army is a religious entity to them. So what they are really saying is that we all must serve their god and practice their religion.
The irony is palpable. Israel, the so-called Jewish state, is becoming a society that denies religious freedom to Jews. Those lacking passports to other countries may need to apply for political asylum. I am not joking. The court is insisting that all Charedim serve the army and the chilonim and, more disappointingly, the National “Religious” are applauding. They don’t understand the complexity of the matter and don’t care to try because religious faith often works on simplicity, even faith in idols works that way.
Part of protesting is the PR campaign, You have to convience outsiders that your cause is right.
And that is where these protests have failed. They have failed to convience outsiders that their cause is just and they give sympathy to the other side.
IMO if they want people to be sympathetic to their cause they need to draw the other side into doing things that make them look sympatheic. Calling women Shiksas, calling IDF soliders Nazis is not the way to acheive this
Yitz, civil disobedience is OK if the law is manifestly unjust but one who engages in it must be prepared to pay the price. Otherwise there will be anarchy (see “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”). However, taking action, such as blocking streets is not civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is passive, such as refusing to register for the draft. Thoreau did not block the entrance to the tax office. He simply did not pay the tax he was assessed.
MTAB, you are motzi shem ra on the State and its functionaries. How is religious freedom being abridges? Do you believe that it is absolute? For example, if some “rav” would demand a human sacrifice would you allow it?
Joseph is simply in denial that no Gedolei Yisroel initiated these protests. He has a habit of speaking falsehoods and putting words in otherโs mouths. Falsely accusing others of anything from being a liar, heretic, sinner and evil is one of his hallmarks. He has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against individuals that he never met but against entire groups of Jews. It is his modus operandi in pushing his agenda against anyone whom he perceives as not toeing his rigid and warped view of Judaism. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of his being raised in an intolerant and neurotic environment where the rest of the world is looked upon with suspicion, disdain and much worse. He never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.
Dear MTAB,
I agree that the Israeli government should reconsider whether mandatory enlistment is necessary in our times. However, the focus of this post is whether illegal and sometimes violent protests against the need for yeshiva students to register for a deferment.Being said, the need for foot soldiers in a modern-day army has been greatly reduced due to hi-tech advancements in modern-day warfare. At the push of a button, a soldier can launch a guided missile, which is generally more effective in destroying the enemy than a foot soldier’s shooting from his M16 rifle.
I partially agree with MTAB’s statement that the goal of the IDF is to create a cohesive (and secular) Israeli society. The IDF is the last bastion of the “religion” of secular Zionism. But to its credit, Shabbat and kosher food at IDF bases is the law (although not always enforced).
More and more religious soldiers are top brass in the IDF. At the IDF base in Tsrifim, there is even a men’s mikva for the soldiers who are makpid about tevilas Ezra. Yes, the Israeli army has problems (particular tznius issues). But there have been changes for the better in the last few years.
Disclaimer: Although I have personally volunteered in the IDF, none of my children have served in the IDF; They serve the Nation by learning Torah in yeshivos/kollels.
If it could be proved that there is no need from a military perspective for mandatory army service, then I think everyone in Israeli society would be happy to create a professional cadre of army volunteers — like in the USA and other Western countries.
And offer to pay the IDF volunteers generously for their service. At present, soldiers receive only a few hundred shekels a month for their service.
MTAB:
I appreciate articulate comments that reflect thought and the skill to express it. You’re a breath of fresh air. I disagree with you, but there can at least be a dialogue that is level headed.
You noted that the military draft is an outdated process. Well, maybe so. But the approach to that is to understand its origin, and to work with the system to modify it to where it is rational. Arguably, a broad based draft was a dire need in the earliest days of the medina. Perhaps that is no longer true. But even in the earliest years of the IDF, there was recognition that there needed to be yeshivos with full time talmidim, and there were deferments to accommodate. What changed?
There are probably several factors here. One is the growth of the population. It is an assumption, though I have yet to see statistics on this, that the growth of the young population in the chareidi community is far greater than the secular community. The appearance is alarming to the secular population, and the politicians representing those factions will respond to their constituents’ call to rectify the imbalance. Not to reduce the chareidi population, but to have them proportionally represented in the military.
The growth of extremism is notable. Wherever one looks, the activists for extremes are prominent. Causes are just that, with those who are pro or con, but the attention is grabbed up by those voicing and doing extremes. That drives media, and that drives societal trends. America has its movements, well represented by MSM, such as BLM, Antifa, etc. They grab headlines all the time, and there are enough people with limited knowledge to accept anything they say, fake or exaggerated. We have a vocal NK, a serious cancer to Yiddishkeit, without a legitimate claim to the shitos of gedolim who were against the medina. Activism is being hijacked to extremism, and the result is colossal chilul Hashem, failure, and negative backlash.
Are yeshivos today truly institutions of solid learning, or are they refuge spots for those who seek to avoid responsibility? There were yeshiva bochurim in America that were known as the “4-D’s”. That was the draft classification for students who were deferred from the draft. I knew many of them. Yeshivos need to be places of learning, and a ben Torah should be recognized by his behavior outside the beis hamedrash, as well. Sadly, we see too much of the opposite. Yeshivos are not producing the gedolim they once did. There is an obsession with kavod, glamour, publicity, and a frummer-than-thou mentality. There is a spectrum of this, and not all are alike. But the extreme ones get the attention, and get the publicity engine to push their agenda, of which too big a percentage is questionable if it is leshem Shomayim. When the public observes bochurim busy with anything but learning, there is reason to question whether this is valid grounds for deferment.
Lastly, your opening line, “There are many ways to serve one’s country.” speaks volumes. If there was not such a virulent and toxic reaction to the chok hagiyus, there could have easily been a compromise to work with the system and arrange for some form of public service. Certain yeshiva bochurim should qualify to be exempt from even that, as their learning excels and should be supported. Others need to support the public, and can certainly do so without compromising any values or halachos. However, Peleg has opted to work against the system, and the futility of this approach is only overshadowed by the sheer disgust over the extent of violence, chilul Hashem, and damage to countless innocent victims.
Hey Joe….your peleg chevrah (at least 123 of them at last count) are rotting in at least 4 separate jails in EY this shabbos….maybe make a m’sheberach for them tomorrow am. There is also a partial listing of names in the news section of YWN so you can also begin soliciting donations for a legal defense fund. Have you heard about crowdsourcing? The good news is that a large percentage of Israelis who have been tolerant of these disruptions until now seemed to have reached a breaking point and there is growing sentiment in favor of brute force to squash them and the “gadolim” you claim have inspired their actions. Hopefully your shabbos will not be as mieserable as it will be for thsoe 123 hellege yungerleit
okay, so im too lazy to read all the comments, but ill say this:
they didnt join the army cuz they want to learn torah right?
but it sure doesnt look like theyre doing a lot of learning now….The Little I Know, military culture is secular. Telling a frum boy he has to spend 3 years swimming in it is like telling a chiloni that he has to be schooled in a Satmar yeshiva. It’s easy for the chilonim to demand that frum boys be in the army when they built the army for their sensibilities.
;The legal method is to simply register and get your deferment, as has been done for decades
This shows a profound ignorance of the crucial changes in the last 5 years and the changes in the 10-15 years before that.
If you don’t have knowledge of the way the law has been changed, then you cannot hope to understand the cause that these that Peleg are fighting for.
I don’t excuse the heter for these type of protests, but there is certainly a huge threat to Torah in EY caused by the Lapid/Kadima-Bennet/Bayit Yehudi coalition changes to the status quo.
From the abolition of the Tal law, reversal of vaad hayeshivos control of the situation, imposition of mandatory quotas of chareidi recruits, forcing bochurim to come to army offices for deferment, etc etc this is certainly not the way things have been for decades. In fact, not even the way things have been for one decade.
Never before has there been such a threat to conscripting those in full time learning into an army that is becoming an ever more unacceptible place for a frum yid.
to all those who are so worried about Dina demolchusa, you may not know or not care but the “high court” (the same one who believes all bochurim should be drafted) has ruled that the right to protest overrides the individual rights so therefore it is legal to protest on shabbos in petach tikva in a religious neighborhood and bother all the neighbors for the last 48 weeks! so too it is perfectly legal to make a demonstration and inconvenience people for a few hours (unless of course you are chareidi and part of the PELEG) you are allowed to strike at the airport for hours or days. On highways (the disable for the past weeks daily) but not one or two intersections in a city , right
GHD, we Yidden are used to being Moser Nefesh for the Torah HaKedosha and bearing with your kin throwing us in prison. For example when your predecessors threw the Maharam M’Rottenberg in prison, the Mitteler Rebbe in prison and so many other gedolei yisroel who were jailed throughout the centuries. Not to mention all those who hid from the Russian cantonist authorities, dodging the draft, resulting in many yiddishe kinder being imprisoned.
When the Gadol Hador Rav Chaim disapproves of the protests, it is not a Kiddush HaShem
Avi kane, you write, “More and more religious soldiers are top brass in the IDF. ”
Define religious. As I have observed it Dati Leumi practice a different religion from Charedim. WHen I came to israeli, i was not Charedi, but when I saw how most DL conduct themselves I realized I had to make a choice. and these military DL, they are commandos with yarmulkas. There’s more to being a Jew than keeping kosher. There are frum values, ways of carrying oneself. Swagger, arrogance, and faith in F-16s is not exactly the Rambam’s Judaism. The greatest crime of the MIzrachi, who the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, and most gadolim openly opposed, was making secular zionism seem Jewish. and the DL make it seem as though one can be frum in the military. Maybe you can be minimally observant there but you can’t be a traditional fully dedicated yid there. I don’t care how many photos of soldiers with tefillin you show me.
when did rav chaim disapprove? ywn had a deception headline as usual that made it seem like that but he was complaining about the embarrassment of a scholar not hte pprotests
ZD, Rav Chaim also said it’s better to daven at home with a hat rather than davening in a Minyan without a hat. Do you follow the Godol HaDor on that too or only on things you pick and choose to follow?
Avi kane, you write “MTAB, you are motzi shem ra on the State and its functionaries.”
The state is a person? It’s a religious entity? One can’t be motzi shem ra on a secular state, particularly one that has a long history of opposing Torah Judaism. Don’t be fooled by the Magen Dovid on the flag or the other symbols the state stole from traditional Jews.
The brisker rav said, two things are certain, zionism is idolatry. everyone in israel stumbles in zionism.
Yoffi, the protests in PT are not on Shabbat but Motza’ei Shabat and they are subject to the11PM noise curfew as well as other generally applicable laws (such as not blocking traffic, which they don’t).
Joseph, reply #1387649 is hilarious but don’t give up your day job.
The Rav Chaim letter did not come from YWN, it was originally posted in the Israeli version of Yated.
And what is interesting to all those defending the Peleg is they dont even know how these protests started.
A bunch of Peleg Bochrim went to the Dead Sea for a vacation and were caught not being in the Yeshiva when they were supposed to. If you want to argue that learning is just as valid as army service, where is your defense about vacationing at the dead sea while other jews have their lives at risk
- The topic ‘Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?’ is closed to new replies.