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I think that people go OTD and do all kinds of avairos while remaining frum on the outside because they do not fear punishment.
One solution is to make people more aware of the arba misois beis din and of gehennom. I think this needs to begin in preschool and in the popular culture.
Toys that promote knowledge of the big four, like building a beis haskila out of big Lego blocks, need to be encouraged. Concerts should have live skila and sreyfa shows before the performers come on stage to warn people about pritzus during the concert, and we need one or two good “toichecho” albums. School plays need to reenact all four punishments as well as to portray gehennom as realistically as possible.
In addition, we should petition local governments for the right to punish say, two or three offenders a year who are also liable for secular criminal penalties. One public sreyfa would be enough to scare anyone straight.
I totally agree. Lack of Yiras Shomayim is probably the cause to many teenagers going OTD.
As far as your practical ideas…I’d say you should rather stick to simple teaching and be an example for the kids. What do you say?
I too agree with the OP. Although, as observanteen noted, some of the practical suggestions may not be attainable, ideally all of it ought to be implemented were it practical, but in the abscence of that implementing as much of it as achievable would be wise.
Skilah,Hereg,Chenek,Sreifah…BEWARE!!!
How did that song go again? Asher bara yetzer hara v’daled misos beis din…
Are you talking about the song “Avoda zora, giluy aroyos, shvichas domim, un alle zachen, only in…” ?
“Lack of Yiras Shomayim is probably the cause to many teenagers going OTD.”
WRONG!!!!!!!!! WRONG!!!!!!!!! WRONG!!!!!!!!!
Most kids go OTD because of personal experiences that would greatly shock you – NOT because of a lack of Yiras Shomayim. I’d like to see how you would deal with what these kids went through to make them do what they’re doing. we are in absolutely NO possision to judge them!
as for the OP’s suggesgtion to have a public Sreifa – apparantly G-d doesn’t agree as we dont have a proper Bet Din today, and even in the times that we did, a generation in which 2 mitot bet din were carried out was considered bloodthirsty.
It’s impossible for a Yirei Shomayim to go OTD. So, clearly, anyone going OTD has a lack of Yirei Shomayim.
Now look what you started.
mustangrider: You seem to be very strong with your opinion. I’d just like to say that I too, had it hard. I can’t share all the details here, but believe me, I’ve had many difficult challenges. I don’t think I’d be “greatly shocked” to find out what the OTD kids are going through. I know. But let me tell you something. One of my parents grew up in a terrible environment. To the point where s/he PLANNED on how to commit suicide at age eleven (!). And yet, ALL of his/her siblings remained frum. Why’s that? Why did the previous generation have FAR less OTD teens? I truly DO think it’s because of a lack of yiras shomayim. How do I know? I don’t think you want to know how;)
and you think telling these kids they deserve death will help? really?
There was a program called “Scared Straight” in the program, they took at-risk teens (Not jewish) who were trouble makers and brought them to prison to see what life was life there and see how bad it really was there.
While some teens were “scared straight” others were not and one of the original teens who was in the program, committed a crime and got 25 to life.
Mustangrider, Rambam writes that that Mishna in Makkos about executing people only randomly is meant to impress upon the Da’yanim the obligation to be careful in paskening, but, if need be, they can execute 100 people a day.
Oh boy. Everyone please calm down. The OP is obviously written tongue in cheek.
600 Kilo Bear- Your post sounds like something Popa would say!
i approve.
mustangrider- although its good that your passionate about this i believe your wrong. i have an exremely shady past and can honestly say i had a wonderful childhood. terrific parents. between low and mid income. there were no reasons i went wacky. except taaveh. and a lack of connection/yiras shomayim. so i disagree. alot of my friends too. there are no absolutes.
When it comes to the Klal there are most definitely absolutes and I believe the one at play here should be b’yamin karov, b’smol rachok. Draw close with the (stronger hand)right and with the (weaker)left rebuke. Having said that I have to agree that the OTD reaction is not just due to abuse or difficulties but do you really think the solution is harsh mussar? The generations get weaker and less able to handle it, ask any menahel.
I am not sure if Kilobear is suffering the effects of his abundance of Simchas Torah wine, or if it is lingering effects from his Purim celebration that is causing this particular issue. In any case, we wish him a hearty refuah shleima.
I concur with Kilo Bear! Kilo, my trusty volenteer, please step forward and stretch out your neck for us to demonstrate Hereg, this should teach all those OTD people out there what’s coming to them if they don’t shape up…
B”H I dont know anyone OTD (unless everyone I know is OTD and we just dont realize it), but if I had to guess, yiras shamayim probably plays an important factor in decisions to “act out” and go OTD, although I would venture to guess that it is the lack of yiras shamayim that is lacking in those these people look up to as role models and mentors. If/when role models and mentors talk the talk, but dont walk the walk, you can be sure those being preached to, will walk.
sorry everyone, but i still feal that having ppl learn true Emuna and Bitachon will work far better than trying to make them “Scared Straight” – however its a moot point anyway as public burnings will pribably not become legal…
It will become legal with the advent of Moshiach.
Mustangrider:
“but i still feal that having ppl learn true Emuna and Bitachon will work far better than trying to make them “Scared Straight””
You’re entitled to feel that way, but do you have any experience with this?
Yes. It’s completely okay to have yirah. Why, it says countless times in the Torah that one should fear Hashem. We also must have ahava. But in case you don’t know, most OTD teens CRAVE tough love. They WANT to be directed and guided. Sometimes, they even want to be yelled at. They feel so lost and alone – they’re in DIRE need of some yirah.
As Toi said, there are lots of teens who go off simply out of taava. Our world today is really dangerous. With Internet, a blackberry or a bad friend it’s pretty easy to slide down that slippery slope.
And those who have difficult parents and/or siblings etc. CONSTANTLY hear that “Yeah, nebach. Ploni almoni went OTD. But he’s really not to blame. He had a difficult childhood, y’know.” And so, 14, 13 and even 12 year old kids are going OTD.
I think it’s time it became UNACCEPTABLE to go OTD.
I’ve a relative who had the worst life you can ever imagine. Insane abusive parents, divorced, remarried lost his second expecting wife tragically plus, plus. And he said, “I fail to understand how people go OTD. Why, I’ve nothing left in this world, but Hashem. Should I leave Him too?” Why do you think he said that? Because he has yiras shomayim AND ahavas Hashem.
Shein, I have to disappoint you, but s’raifah is the rarest of the 4.
For those desiring Fire & Brimstone Judaism, I have further bad news: Dante, the most graphical writer about gehennom, was not Jewish.
No 2 situations are the same! Some people may be able to hear about the punishments and work with it, whilst some will not.
It’s not a new problem going OTD. Already in Gamera it talks of it. Before the second world war k”y was losing thousands.
When somebody is desperately unhappy, which is often how one will feel OTD death can be a way out. Terrible way of death? “I deserve it”.
Josh: He did, however, have a Jewish friend who wrote something similar. And there’s always the Reishis Chochmah.
observanteen, you are absolutly correct! i just dont think that telling these teens that they deserve death will help. and most teens dont go off the derech simply because of ta’avah – unless we are speaking of two different issues. i am reffering to the teens who go off and do drugs, get tatoos, run away from home… not the kind where the kid starts to watch movies (if he comes from a family which forbids it) or other such things.
obviousely one must have yiras shamayim – but my opinion on how to instil it is completely different from the OP.
additionally, when i say that most of these kids are subjects of abuse, i am not neccessaraly reffering to the abuse that the public hears about. these kids dont tell ANYONE what was done to them (vehamavin yavin). they feal badly enough and most blame themselves. they are hurting more than you can imagine! true they need firm discipline but with “smol docha veyamin mekarevet” they think G-d hates them – telling them that they deserve death will not make them do teshuva, they will just continue thinking that they are a lost case anyways… but if children were instilled with proper bitachon – really instilled with it – of course with yirah too, then perhaps we can prevent futer teens from going OTD.
i know 3 pple who were subject to said abuse. two went OTD and are currently getting help, and the 3rd only remained because she is one of the strongest girls i know – her bitachon is astounding, and even she struggles daily.
I don’t know, or care, who Dante was, but “Fire & Brimstone” is a verse from the Torah.
I think that awareness is definaltly needed but i dont think it is so necessary for it to be shown! it should be spoken about more in a way that prertains to our lives today.
“They WANT to be directed and guided. Sometimes, they even want to be yelled at.”
Which of these wants means they want to be threatened with a death penalty.
Want? Being threatened with the death penalty is done by the Torah.
“Which of these wants means they want to be threatened with a death penalty.”
Neither. Because I didn’t want to say that. Yiras Shomayim is not about a “death penalty”.
shmoel:
I don’t know, or care, who Dante was, but “Fire & Brimstone” is a verse from the Torah.
Yet is used primarily to describe a Christain method of preaching. Hm.
In the Gemara it says that a Beis Din that executes once in 70 years is considered a bloody court.
“two or three offenders a year”
Bear wants to be about 200 times as bloody.
We now have those who know the floor plan of gehennom, but nothing about Meleches Machsheves (requirements for an act on Shabbos to be an actual Biblical violation).
A Chinuch (education) which is strong in Fire & Brimstone, but weak in Halachic details will create Fanatics and Rebels.
Shein: Giving the death penalty when necessary is prescribed by the Torah. How do you know that Hashem wants that as a threat constantly hanging over our heads? Maybe it’s just a necessary consequence of certain actions.
OneOfMany: We don’t discard a posuk in the Torah (fire and brimstone) because goyim use it in a messed up way.
Josh: Beis Din could execute 100 people in one day, if necessary.
Sam: See the Mussar Seforim. I’m sure you don’t advocate discarding them. They are FULL of very scary consequences for what might even seem like “minor” aveiros to some.’
Shmoel: There are also very legitimate anti-Mussar Derachim in Avodas Hashem. Both are perfectly legitimate ways to go about it, but everyone is different. A way that works for one person will have the exact opposite effect on someone else. That’s why Kiruv cannot ever be formalized or institutionalized. It’s different for every single person.
Actually I think Beis Din would almost always look for a way NOT to execute someone
There is another problem with why many teens can do things OTD, which I have seen countless times.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but when someone is the 4th child out of 11, let’s say, they really are free and on their own for a good part of the week. Telling parents they are going to a friend’s house or to work or something seems to be enough of keeping tabs.
Groups of frum teens are totally unsupervised for too long a time and they are no more immune to
the yetzer hora than the rest of us.
While large families are for sure a blessing, B”H, two busy parents, doing all the right things for their family, just dont have enough hours on the clock to inculcate values and have a one-on-one rapport with each child.
I dont know what the answer is. Perhaps recreation centers or something. Perhaps limud kodesh education with deeper understanding that each subject is not just a subject, but a way of life.
I never heard of the texting thing until it was posted here and a read up further and it seems teens were doing it because they were bored and isolated on Shabbos
Here is an idea instead of threatening them with stonning, how about showing them the beauty of shabbos (and others)
If you are a parent do you always threaten your children with punishment no matter how small the infraction, dont you try rewarding them if you do the right thing?
shmoel:
We don’t discard a posuk in the Torah (fire and brimstone) because goyim use it in a messed up way.
Was I suggesting that…?
My point is while the concept of “fire and brimstone” is fundamental to goyish religion (as indicated by the original poster of this expression), there is little precedent to indicate that it is to ours. (The posuk merely coins the term. It does not refer to this concept at all.) Do you REALLY want to adopt such a system? (Especially since it seems to be working out SO well for them…)
gehinnom is VERY fundamental to Judaism
I disagree with the original poster’s premise. In our times, negative reinforcement as a policy can only be detrimental. Not only would it NOT instill yiras shomayim into slipping individuals, but it would probably further their disillusion with Yiddishkeit. Showing them concepts of punishment that are not concretely applicable to them has no practical purpose.
I don’t think that the motivation in most cases is lack of fear. The thought of gehennom is not what inspires ME not to sin – it’s my conviction in what is right that does. There are so many mixed messages being given to our youth that only the strongest can claim such conviction. I think that if people try help the confused BEFORE their confusion precludes their belief in Yiddishkeit, there really would be little need for negative reinforcement. Wouldn’t that be ideal?
Tthen again, this idea may be as practical to implement as the OP’s is. I don’t know. But a little love and understanding goes a long way.
Moderator-80: You can believe in gehennom and corporal punishment without advocating it as a means of ENFORCEMENT. Which is “fire and brimstone” religion is. I think the premise of Judaism is positive, unlike that of the Christains.
im sorry
there is some kind of software problem or something today
i dont know where the thread went
ill try to get it back eventually
i havent time right now
This was a good thread. The OP and some posts are still gone. I hope your able to retrieve it Mod80.
I agree. 🙂
Moderator-80: You can believe in gehennom and corporal punishment without advocating it as a means of ENFORCEMENT. Which is “fire and brimstone” religion is. I think the premise of Judaism is positive, unlike that of the Christains. .
the premise of Judaism in this regard is that there is reward AND PUNISHMENT in this world and certainly in the next for ALL our actions.
there are consequences NEGATIVE and positive.
Gehinnom is a fundamental concept as is the reward in the next world
The other religion belives that you burn for eternity, in judaism you dont stay in gehenim for more than 11 months unless you are a true Rasha (Then its 12 months)
I am not sure if Burning is part of jewish theology (frankly I dont know exactly what Judaism says the punishment in Gehenom is)
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