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I live in a large city in the southwest. I have been here for many years now and am still disturbed by how people come dressed for shul. Prior to living here , I lived in Flatbush where in general men came to shul dressed at a certain level. Usually, a suit jacket, long pants, dress shirt, and most of the time a hat. Here,some men come to shul dressed like their going to a club or a bar, wearing loud Hawiian type shirts, t-shirts, wearing as they call it “bling”- bracelets and necklaces, and at times shorts.This group includes professionals like doctors and lawyers, as well as people who serve in religious positions such as gabbai. I guess I might be called hardline but I think when you go to the place that has in a sense, “replaced” the Bais HaMikdash, you should dress like you’re going to be in the prescence of the Melech HaMelochim.
Theres an Halacha that says you should refrain from davening in a shul with amorotziem!
Your mindset is healthy and shows sighns of good status.
dont try to change the world. But istead go to a better shul. Evan if you have to move.
farewell.
How do you know the Aibishter isn’t tired of us all looking like a bunch of Oreo cookies?
Perhaps the Aibeshter is sitting at His table in the beis medrosh elyon, shaking his head and saying, “For goodness sake, I created a universe with COLORS! WEAR THEM!”
Seriously, if you want to effect change, talk to the Rov. Maybe he has the same goals as you, but maybe he senses different priorities to address. I don’t know where you live, but it’s possible that maybe in that particular shul, the goal is to get people to come to shul . . .
telegrok. I see your in distress. may i say that what i was saying was that you should dress approipiately. no shorts or hawiian shirts. or hollister sweatshirts. but by all means wear grey suites and brown shoes. and purple ties.
telegrok – You hit the nail on the head! I am so maskim to you!
The formal dress in the south and southwest is often different than what NYers wear.
I bet Avrohom didn’t wear a black suit with a white shirt.
Maybe it’s not your concern.
The people are in shule. It’s between them and HKB”H.
I also think it depends whether or not it is Shabbat. On Shabbat we are to dress in our finest to honor the day. During the daily minyamin I don’t think that casual clothing is inappropriate. Those that are going to work afterward are generally more dressed up but on a Sunday morning it isn’t uncommon to see jeans, bermuda shorts in the summer, and T shirts or sports shirts. It is more important that the people come – Hashem doesn’t mind what you wear.
As one who favors a high level of formality in schul, especially on Shabbat and Yom Tov, I sympathize with the OP. There should be dress codes, at least informal understandings of what is acceptable. Some formality adds to the dignity of the place and the subject matter at hand. At the same time, better the people come, even if informally attired, than be put off by the formality and not come at all.
When i was in yeshiva MANY MANY years ago, my Rebbi explained proper attire as follows:
“How would you dress for an important meeting or job interview?”
or ” how would you dress if you were meeting the President of the United States?”
UNFORTUNATELY – in today’s day – NEITHER MEANS ANYTHING ANYMORE!!
I believe that one should remember where they are and where they are going. I don’t believe it is appropriate to play sports in a suit and therefor it is not appropriate to go to shul in sports attire. I don’t believe it is appropriate to present yourself in front of an Aron Kodesh in anything less appropriate than you would present yourself in any other court of law, judge or business meeting. After all you should definitely consider your meeting with Hashem in prayer just as important. If not why are you there?
personally I think you should dress properly in shul.
What does proeperly mean?
Shorts, no socks amd loud T shirts should be left at home.
I know a woman who went to Brooklyn and while her husband was davening mincha (landaus?) she saw a sefardi teen come out in shorts and thought it was a kiddush hashem.
I think these things vary with place/custom. In Israel, for example, outside of the strict Chareidi circles, one sees a huge variety of Shabbat-wear. Men in white shirts and khakis, men in suits, men in colored/plaid/striped shirts. Women with head-coverings of every imaginable type (including those that women in certain cities in America wouldn’t even wear to take their garbage out.), women without stockings, women in tee shirts, and women in chatuna outfits.
One thing I’ve noticed: the wider the variety in outfits, the more heartzig the daavening. Generally.
Q: Is it permissible to pray the Amida while wearing shorts?
A: Only in areas where it is customary to wear shorts in the presence of prominent and distinguished people, such as in agricultural communities; even in such cases, however, one should not serve as Chazan while wearing shorts (Halacha Berura).
SOURCE:
http://www.mishnaberura.com/Default.asp?ChelekID=1&SeifID=321
I dont live in the Southwest, dont know what is considered customary dress. It may be very different than in NE.
We repersent Hashem’s nation.
You must always remember this.
What would a Famous great artist paint if he was asked to paint a jew?
this should enlighten us!
Tell the rabbi, see what he says then leave to a better shul if nothing semms to be getting better!
good day
apushatayid:
Just to clarify, there is a difference between what is expected when one is davening and what is actual halacha.
The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 91:2) requires that there be a physical divide between the heart and the erva during prayer. That’s it. Nothing more. So theoretically, one can walk in wearing not much else.
If you want to be machmir and want to wear clothes (let alone pants, dress shirts, suits, ties, etc…) than that is perfectly acceptable. I personally wear what I wear to work (which is usually a dress shirt, pants, and a blazer).
One thing I’ve noticed: the wider the variety in outfits, the more heartzig the daavening. Generally.
I’ve noticed the precise opposite. The more uniform in dress, the more heartzig the daavening. Generally.
jewish and working 22-
Incorrect. The ervah must be covered because of the pasuk lo yir’eh b’cha ervas davar. Brachos 24a and 26b. And one must dress in an appropriate fashion because of the pasuk hikon likras elokecha yisroel. Shabbos 10a. Both of these halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch. See the footnotes in the gemaras for the SA references.
JewishandWorking. I didnt tell anyone how to dress for davening. Just pointing out that strict halacha is on the side of those who dress in a manner that the OP doesnt like, assuming that is normal manner of dress in that area. If it is considered a normal manner of dress the Rav likely knows that, and is aware of the halacha, and probably knows his congrgants a lot better than you or I (as well as the OP) and for whatever reason he is not saying anything about it. Perhaps he has bigger fish to fry with his congregants and is letting this slide for now? If the OP doesnt like the mode of dress, he should take it up with the Rav and if he is still not satisfied, the best advice, is to find a new place to daven.
You are right. However one man can’t change a whole shul. The point here is that these people that dress for shul as if it’s supposed to be a relaxed, casual atmosphere, would never show up for work dressed that way, let alone to an “interview” or more. I don’t think there would be resistance if the Rabbi would tell them to come to shul in respectable attire, comparing it to, say, your “weekly review with your boss”. It’s not about the colors but in every religion, there’s “dressed up” and “dressed down”. I hate to say this but l’havdil the goyim that go to church on Sundays always show up in their “Sunday best”. If they can do it….
ItsJustMyOpinion: As I drive to minyan on Sunday mornings I happen to pass by 3 churches and people don’t dress up to go there anymore, either. I seen women in pants and no hats, men, teens and some women in jeans, etc, etc. I believe that with dwindling congregations, the clergy are just happy to see the worshippers – whatever they are wearing. Not unlike many synagogues. Life is much less formal these days – I have noticed when attending a ballet or the theatre – where people used to get quite dressed up – anything seems to be going there as well. I haven’t seen a man in a tux or a woman in a gown at a concert or opera in at least 20 years, but I see plenty of people at these functions in jeans, cords, khakis, etc. At my shul, except for Shabbat and Yomtovim, casual is just fine.
Goyim no longer routinely dress up for church. I have passed by churches where the teens were dress in shorts and the moms wore pants and shirts. I don’t think it is very dignified to do so, but it is done all over the place.
i’m maskim with you, chaimberlin702.
but intelecual,you have no excuse for calling these ppl amaratzim! you have no right to judge ppl like that! they might be the nicest, most mentchlich, ppl there are! who cares if they like to dress comfortably or chilled. that’s between them and H-Shem. i don’t think H-Shem considers His people “amaratzim” no matter how they dress- especially not in the way you seem to put it. you make it sound like they are bad ppl! please watch the way you say things. sorry if i come across as harsh. i just don’t like when ppl judge others. H-Shem is the judge.
If the rav felt his congregants were up to dressing differently perhaps he would speak to them about it. Perhaps he’s still working on kashrus, shabbos and taharas hamishpacha with many of these people and he’s willing to look the other way if they wear hawaiin shirts to shul. There are 612 other mitzvos besides tefilla. Unlike some people here, the Rav is not willing to write off his congregation for how they dress.
Minhag HaMakom rules!!!
But shuls need to accommodate outsiders.
In New York, that means a good inventory of jackets in all sizes.
In this Southwestern city there has to be a good selection of Hawaiian shirts.
In Mexico and parts of the Carribbean, “formal wear” can be as simple as something called a guayabera shirt, with no jacket or tie. Men will wear it rather than a tux when they get married. We should not force European attire on those who have different customs.
“Theres an Halacha that says you should refrain from davening in a shul with amorotziem!”
Who determines is someone is an am ha’aretz? You? Because they don’t dress according to what you want?
Hard to believe that Yom Kippur was only one month ago.
OK minyan gal, I stand corrected. I don’t pass many churches lately. Although I did say “l’havdil”. BTW, I’m assuming we’re talking about Shabbos. Weekdays even the frumest are a little more lax. The point is that in a Young Israel type shul that I stop in to from time to time, where I’ll be the first to admit that some of them are as frum as the next guy, I’ve seen many of them dressed up during the week to go to work or attend a wedding(so they clearly own suits and ties) but shabbos show up to shul in khakis, dockers and casual shirts. Is this the worst thing? No, but it almost seems like a slap in the face. (“TGIF, I can’t wait to get out of this suit and put on my beach clothing to go to shul”) I don’t think the Rabbi would get much resistance if he brought up the sanctity of shul/standing in front of your “real boss” in what they will agree is their “best” clothing.
And in certain parts of Africa formal wear can consist of practically nothing.
I saw a psak written up a while ago that I think was from R’ Sternbuch, although I might be mistaken on that. He said that when it says we must be dressed appropriately for davening, it means internally – meaning we must be in the proper mindset. He said it doesn’t refer to clothing.
Ben Torah,
That was a racist comment. Please retract.
charliehall, if I had made a likewise comment about Europe would your reaction be the same? I didn’t think so. Please retract.
IJMO: I am talking about during the week when people dress casually. Many regular members of the minyan are retired so they aren’t going to wear a suit and tie to come. Working people dress like they do when going to work – usually a suit. On Shabbat people are much more dressed up. In fact, about a year ago the Rabbi’s sermon touched upon the fact that one should wear their finest clothing for Shabbat. I usually get very nicely dressed up for shul on Shabbat but occasionally am a bit more casual – for example a skirt and sweater instead of a suit. I always dress up when I know that there is a Bar/Bat Mitzvah because I feel that if I am privileged to attend this family’s simcha, they deserve me taking the time to dress up. At my shul, women often wear slacks which I rarely do – sometimes at 40 below zero – but never if I know that I will be on the bimah. I feel that being on the bimah requires finer dressing – just my opinion – and just on Shabbat. Sometimes in the summer, men will come without a tie – nice shirt, sports jackets and slacks. I noticed that Israelis dress much more casually – even on Shabbat. During the week however, I do wear casual to the minyan – usually slacks. I know that I may hear a lot of criticism about the slacks, but I am Conservative and that is the way we do it. Incidentally, I would NEVER attend a service a frum shul in slacks. But, interestingly, I have been taking some classes at Chabad and most of the women attending (non Chabad people) wear slacks. The first few times that I went I made sure to wear a skirt but after awhile I also wore slacks as it was verrrrry cold outside.
I wonder what the OP would have said about Hawaiian Shirts if he were in Hawaii? 🙂
The Wolf
And in certain parts of Africa formal wear can consist of practically nothing.
Laughing about the extreme poverty of others is in very poor taste. People in portions of Africa wear next to nothing because they *have* next to nothing.
Instead of mocking the poorest among us on Earth (talk about Loeg L’Rush), how about thanking God that (a) you have what to eat and wear and that (b) even if you didn’t, you live in a society where, thanks to the charity of Jews and non-Jews alike, almost no one is forced to go naked or hungry.
The Wolf
charliehall – lighten up.
minyan gal – “Those that are going to work afterward are generally more dressed up but on a Sunday morning it isn’t uncommon to see jeans, bermuda shorts in the summer, and T shirts or sports shirts. It is more important that the people come – Hashem doesn’t mind what you wear.”
Don’t you think that going to the Boss of all bosses in His Office warrants the utmost respect and that you dress at least as formal for Him as for when you go to work? Otherwise, what is the message that you send to Hashem; that He is not worthy? Do you think Hashem plays golf on Sundays?
So do all those playing the Hawaiian card also advocate coming to shul to daven in a bathing suit when in those parts of Africa?
If you feel the standards of the shul are not to your liking, go elsewhere. Dont force your standards on everyone else. The mode of dress meets the minimal halachic requirements, and the Rav, for whatever reason, is not making an issue out of it. Why are you?
In response to the Wolf:
It’s okay… no response was required. My question was a joke (as indicated by the smiley), although obviously not a very good one.
The Wolf
Who said they meet the minimum halachic standards?
Often they do not.
I’m not trying to put my standard on anyone else. But, I think there is a minimum standard for dress in shul. I don’t think it’s asking too much for people who go to work in a jacket, and long pants, to have them have the same standard for shul as for work.
And what about those who don’t wear jackets (or long pants) to work?
The Wolf
Long pants are needed for shul. Jackets are optional. As we watch societal standards for behavior and dress go lower and lower, the need for shall we say vigilance to maintain a reasonable standard is needed.
I’m curious… what would you say if you were in a society where *no one* wears long pants? I imagine that there might be some places where shorts are the norm and long pants the exception.
The Wolf
CHAIMBERLIN702 – “Jackets are optional.”
A very definitive statement, however, it’s minhag hamakom. In most shuls you won’t get an aliya or lead services unless you are wearing a jacket.
Jackets are mandatory.
I don’t think that there’s a frum community where shorts are the norm.
I didn’t say there was. Hypothetical.
The Wolf
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